[Glorantha] Chaos, chaos, everywhere, and not a drop to shed.

It seems to me that while I was misinformed about Chaos not being acknowledged everywhere, I am even more convinced that chaos doesn't care about morality.

This is long, and mostly just me working thoughts out in my head on screen so they are clear to me. (And the conclusions is really just, "do what you want to, it's not that important", so there's no earth-shattering epiphany at the end, either.) As someone wisely said, these are only my opinions, even on the rare occasion they might be right. :-)

> From: Greg Stafford <greg_at_glorantha.com>
> Subject: [Glorantha] Ubiquitousness of chaos
>
> Yes, they do.
> It is one of the reasons why there is a monomyth.

I thought the monomyth wasn't really as mono a myth as we thought. (As in while it is pretty solidly the same myth in the central regions, it is less consistent further out.)

> They may call it by other names, but they recognize it as what the
> theists call
> chaotic forces.

I have no problem with this.

> From: Simon Phipp <soltakss@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Glorantha] Re: Ogre cannibalism/Theyalan/Chaos/Sin/
> soul/essence/etc

[monomything]
> Well, they probably think it was caused by other events, but even they
> suffered under the chaos invasions. When the Spike exploded, it affected
> more than just central Genertela.

See, what I'm not even sure of (probably due to my dangerous natural tendency towards GodLearnerism, which causes me to overcompensate the other way) is that the idea that there was a Spike and it cracked exists elsewhere. Like the Dawn. Is the Dawn even viewed as the start of Time by everybody? Just that most basic, basic, basic level of the monomyth -- There was Creation, there were Gods(Powers, what have you) running around, and eventually struggling with one another, Chaos slipped in, the World Broke and was almost destroyed, the world was saved and Time began -- is that true?

As someone who found Glorantha post-HQ, I honestly don't know. (And I know it has been argued, fought over, and done to death and I *am* sorry for bringing it up.) I'm not sure it even REALLY matters for any given game set in Glorantha. For the sake of the ongoing discussion, I am going to assume that the above is true. Who played what role and how and why is all viewed differently by different cultures, but that there was a world with gods, it cracked and in came Chaos, and then it got fixed enough to continue I am going to assume as essentially true.

> I don't know much of East of Prax, to tell the truth. The Kralori seem to
> be able to use anything, as long as it keeps its place and pays homage to
> the Dragon Emperor, but even they have their chaos monsters (Huan To, for
> instance). I can't believe they don't have myths that include the
> destruction of Genert's Garden by Chaos, as it is fairly close to them.

That's true. They are right there. I would suspect Chaos doesn't do a good job of keeping its place and paying homage to the Dragon Emperor, but that's me. :)

[cracks in society]
>
> I haven't a clue, to be honest. Trolls believe that Chaos is always a
> threat and has always been trying to seep in - they even have a Guardian
> who keeps chaos out.

Is that in Trollpak? (I should get my hands on that some day. I like uz. Uz are fun.)

> dara Happans believe that chaos threatened in Aether's
> and Yelm's reigns, but was driven out. It was only after Yelm died that
> chaos was allowed in, caused by Orlanth killing Yelm. Mostali believe that
> chaos entered the World Machine after Umath lifted apart Earth and Sky,
> thus breaking the World Machine. I don't know about Malkioni, but they did
> say that people called themselves False Gods and turned against the
> Creator, so that's what caused the problems. As to the rest, I really don't
> know.

See, this works for me. Everyone knows *somebody did something* that brought Chaos in. Interestingly, in some cases people think it was their own fault, in others they blame someone else. Chaos *did* come. So why the moral side of it? Because there is a belief that the social order is dictated by the gods, then breaking the social order is again weakening the world and possibly allowing chaos back in. But, of course, the social order changes a lot. Perhaps this is why chaos has never been eradicated (I'm sure some believe it). Or, simply, the compromise was just that, a compromise. The world could not be rebuilt as perfect (Perhaps it cannot, but don't tell that to the Mostali.) and so Chaos could never be gotten rid of. It sits around and does what it tries to do, regardless of human agency.

What all this means for my Glorantha game wise is that I am never going to have rules for Chaos. :-) A chaos cult will have whatever magic would be fun, and while people might use theistic or shamanistic or wizardly rites to tap that power, Chaos is none of those things. While a culture might believe a given act promotes chaos, there will be no hard and fast rule. (Things like Skullpoint might happen, but who knows if it is really happening for the reason people think it is happening.) Chaos gods, to use a misnomer for them, don't represent things. They don't own runes, nor do they represent fundamental aspects of reality. They are alien, and they might have power. People might go to them to get some of that power. Sometimes that might even work. But they are what they are.

> Generally, doing evil is not chaotic and does not cause chaos. There are
> exceptions, of course. However, doing evil that breaks down society allows
> chaos in, which is a different mater entirely.

See, in general, I wouldn't play it this way. I'd have virtually everyone believe this, but I wouldn't actually make it work like that.

> >> Everyone agrees that elves are not evil,
>
> I said that tongue-in-cheek, I should have used a smiley.

Indeed. By this point, people can almost say that everyone on this list thinks elves *are* evil, to go by the answers you got. :-)

> I've always thought that Elves and Humans are more alike than most people
> give credit for. In fact, all descendants of Grandfather Mortal are fairly
> similar. It's the others that are different (Dryads etc).

I agree with that. There is a bond, a thread, that runs through all creatures descended of Grandfather Mortal. (Whatever said being is called.)

>Donald Oddy
>
>Well the Goddess and the Emperor have both used chaos on occassion,
>so it must be OK. My view is that the official philosophy was
>created to reconcile the actions of their leaders with discouraging
>everyone from doing the same.

I think it may actually be part of their philosophy, but from a practical standpoint it makes little difference. Chaos exists, and can be controlled if you are powerful and careful enough. Normal people shouldn't mess around with it casually. (Even great heroes shouldn't mess around with it casually.)

>Simon Hibbs
>Certain kinds of evil acts, as you say those that are inimical to the nature
>of the world. IMHO killing kin is inimical. Perhaps some cultures have a
>containment mechanism, similar to that of the Maran Gor cult that allow
>them to controll the risks though. The Affadjan spring to mind. Perhaps
>merely arranging circumstances in which the death of a relative is almost
>guaranteed is enough to avoid inviting in chaos. Orlanthi might find such
>tactics cowardly, so this saftety mechanism isn't so easy for the to adopt.
>Maybe offering a potential victim the choice of suffering rape or an
>honourable death is enough to limit the risks of that too.

See above for my views on this. The very fact that so many cultures have different solutions to these things, special "exceptions" that are allowed, is what makes me think this moral dimension to causing chaos isn't really there. It's something the various cultures have overlaid onto the reality that Chaos exists.

>Chris Lemens
>Subject: [Glorantha] Re: cultural "sources" of chaos

>My gut reaction was that this is not how Praxians view
>chaos. ?It is environmental for them. ?It came from
>the Outside. ?It is in the Greatlands. ?They know
>where it is likely to be. ?Their string maps tells us
>the distance to chaos.

Oooh, I have never heard of these string maps (to be honest, I've never paid much attention to Prax). They have maps of Chaos?

>It may be that Praxians are differet in this than
>other cultures. ?If so, the factor that explains it
>may be that the Greatlands were the place where chaos
>irrupted into the world.

An excellent idea. Certainly Prax was the most devestated by Chaos it seems.

>In any case, the Praxian story about the origin of
>chaos...

Once again, someone did something that allowed what was outside in. That outside then wreaks havoc.

I think I am now ready to drop Chaos and look at cities and associate cults and such. (Much to the relief of many, I suspect *grin*) LC Received on Thu 20 Apr 2006 - 23:09:53 EEST