[Glorantha] Re: Grandmother, a patriarchal concept?

Jamie (Orlanth Umathi):   

> I would dismiss any argument that seeks to put a mirror up to
> patriarchal society as, at best, satire.
   

  OK, that's handy, letting us know which arguments you are not prepared to accept, thanks.

> For instance, do we really want to model Esrolian society purely on
> ideas that would confuse Heortling males, or feel familliar to our world
> view with a twist. I don't. If it is an issue where MGV, then so be it.
   

  Society is not built to take into account the ideas of other societies. So, an Esrolian society should not really take into account the views of nearby Heortling societies. In fact, the society probably takes its lead from the Earth Complex of Deities first, the influence of the Kingdom of Night and Holy Country second, the Storm Pantheon third and regional differences fourth.   

> Terms like Father and Mother in Catholicism are inherently Patriachal
> concepts, I do not agree that you can flip them round within a
> Matriarchal one. The family group would look different and parenting is
> often a more extended concept. If your mother has a similar standing to
> your aunt, I doubt a higher authority would be conceptually modelled on
> the idea of a greater mother.
   

  How is Mother a Patriachal concept? People are born of a mother and they know who is their near kin. So they measure kinship in terms of maternal siblings (born to the same mother - if someone knows the proper term or a better term then I'll use it). So, kinship probably includes, not necessarily in the order of importance, the following:   Maternal siblings (born to the same mother)   Mother
  Mother's Maternal Siblings
  Mother's mother and so on ....
  Sisters' children
  Aunts' Children
  Great Aunts' Children and so on ...    

  In no situation does your mother have the same status as your aunt - one is your mother, the other is your mother's sister.    

  Uncles are different, though, as you are more closely related to your uncle than your father. In families where the mother is married to more than one man, there may not even be the concept of father.    

  The Greater Mother concept is important as you are born of your mother, she of her mother, she of her mother and so on to an original ancestress. That is fundamental and primal.   

> Why are some so set on Grandmother in the first place It seems to me a
> patriarchal bias.
   

  Because if you have clans then you need some way of measuring kinship. Descent from a common ancestor is one way, whether that ancestor is a remote one, your grandmother or your mother.

> I would prefer to start with a historical context for the society and
> extrapolate based on family views then clan outlooks and then lastly a
> cultural context. So, if there is possible confusion for a term for
> Matriarch within a family context I would suggest it is unlikely to have
> developed this way.

  Better, if Gloranthan terms, to start with a religious context and work down from that.   

> Questions that need answers before we can truly judge:
>
> 1) How did Esrolia become a Matriarchy in the first place?
   

  Descent from the Earth Goddesses and their daughters. They copied what the earth goddesses did and continued with their own version of it. The Asrelia/Esrola/Ernalda triad is very strong in Esrolia, three very fertile, very powerful earth-mother types.   

> 2) What does a typical family group look like?
   

  Small family group - mother, husband(s), her children.    

  Extended family - grandmother, sisters/mothers, their husbands and children.    

  Clan - Multiple bloodlines claiming descent from ancestresses, with various degrees of kinship between them.   

> 3) How are family concepts extended into the wider culture?
   

  Everyone claims descent from their mothers. However, things get mixed up at the edges and where other cultures co-exist with the Esrolians. Heortling clans that marry into Esrolian Clans will take some of their attitudes with them, so the children of a Herotling man married to an Esrolian woman would claim descent from their mother and _also_ from their father. Legally their father has no claim on them, under Esrolian law, but under Heortling law they are their father's children. In the Holy Country, they could be married or connected to Malkioni, Pelaski, Helering and other cultures as well, all with different kinship criteria.   

> 4) How does this culture influence the government?

  Not particularly, I think, as each clan/tribe is ruled by a Queen or a council of Queens. Also, there are outside influences at play - the Kingdom of Night had an influence through a matricahal troll society and a single High King, the Only Old One, recently the Pharoah had an influence as High King and Multiple Husband (I assume one of the things he did when taking over Esrolia was to become the Sacred Husband-Protector of all the Goddesses and the ritual husband of all the Queens).

> I intend to let this sit for a bit before commenting again, thinking time.
   

  Right, I was a bit confused by the question, to tell the truth, so I got my confusion in first.   

See ya    

  Simon     Received on Mon 03 Jul 2006 - 13:07:50 EEST