Donald Oddy
>>Well, a unit entirely composed of Beren initiates would be expected to >>excel on Grazer scale, but I doubt such a Sartarite unit exists on Dragon >>Pass boardgame scale. It becomes different when not the individual cultic >>initiation but the warband guardian has the horse riding blessings, and >>IMO that's how mounted warbands operate.
> No one has suggested entire warbands or units of either Beren or
> Ulanin initiates. Just sufficent initiates to provide continuity
> of horse training and horse related magic at clan level.
For breeding and training, we also find Redalda (or whatever the current spelling is) for breeding and training. Sure, another minority (sub)cult, but from a different pool. Finovan ought to offer some not quite that specialized but highly useful horse magic, too - you can raid for horses, after all.
> The sources indicate this doesn't exist. Bear in mind that Beren
> initiates must come out of the one in seven men who don't follow
> Orlanth.
Beren yes, ditto Kuschile and Hyalor (although they sneak back in as ancestors of the Runegaters). Ulanin is easier there.
> I'm amazed you are suggesting that even an Orlanthi all clan
> warbands have guardians giving horse riding blessings.
I didn't mean to. I was talking about cavalry warbands formed when it goes to war, on a tribal or city confederation level.
If a clan can support about 30 nobles and weaponthanes who can do some fighting on horseback, they will be average to wealthy.
> Some will
> certainly but I'm sure they aren't even a majority as there are
> loads of different blessings that a guardian could provide and
> few will provide more than one or two.
>>> Ability to ride does not equate to ability to fight from horseback >>> never mind acting as cavalry. At best "fight from horseback" would >>> be the lowest of "ride" and "fight". >>Probably yes, but will depend as strongly on the horse, too. The>>less effort has to be spent on the horse riding against a foe, the >>more effort can be put into hitting that foe at high speed.
> Which involves training the horse to act against its natural
> instincts. These Beren/Ulanin initiates are going to be very busy.
>>From a moving horse - yes. So expect a mounted Hedkoranthi to slow >>down, sling a few thunderstones from useful distance, and then speed >>up to join up with his non-skirmishing fellows in the band.
> Assuming the horse was trained to accept the sound of slingshot
> buzzing round near it but out of sight. Of course if the rest
> of the warband has charged the Hedkoranthi will still arrive
> at the end of the fight.
>>In case of a greater war, the fyrd is assembled, and volunteers or >>delegates join the royal warbands while the rest returns to their usual >>role as emergency force. Talking about the fyrd as in clan fyrd will be >>misleading. >>Instead, we are faced with the city militia (assuming that the royal >>warbands use the cities as focus for mustering). Lots of volunteer>>part-time warriors join up with the core of professionals which are >>present in each unit (as sub-leaders).
> This sounds far too much like a regular army organisation. Why
> on Glorantha should Orlanthi volunteers fight under a sub-leader
> they've never met when they've their own clan leaders who can
> do the job?
So, every clan sends some of their weaponthanes to the elite forces, and some to the militia to fill those positions.
>>Another important consideration: the Tarshite forces in DP/WB&RM are >>post-Dragonrise forces, minus the Fazzurites (Cavalry Corps quality >>troops).
> DP/WBRM is supposed to cover the whole of the Hero Wars. It's not
> clear how long that is but I get the impression of decades at least.
> Plenty of time for Tarsh to rebuild their few professional units.
> TiF lists for the period 1610-1630 only a regiment of Huscarls, two
> of light infantry and two of cataphracts. All the other regiments
> are mostly part-timers with a cadre of full-timers. I suspect after
> the Dragonrise Tarsh is desperately trying to rebuild their forces
> to defend the cities.
First thing after the Dragonrise is Fazzur gathering an expeditionary army from those veterans who had shared his disgrace and available forces to stop Kallyr. The night before the battle Fazzur learns from the backstabbing against his followers at home, summons his household forces (the backbone of that force) and leaves the battlefield. The remaining (non-Fazzurite) professionals and the part-timers get to slug it out against Kallyr's rabble (probably with a core of Iceland veterans, but mostly an enthusiastic mob). Both sides suffer terrible losses, but the Tarshites give the field (usually that means additional losses).
So, next thing in Tarsh is the rise of the Phargantites. They go and build a quite professional army which gets to occupy the Far Point. They even have magicians (although it is not clear whether those are from Moirades' magical college of Tarsh or Heartlander magicians). Shock at Sword Hill: the Sartarites have magicians too, who neutralize the Lunar magics, allowing their non-magical friends to destroy them (as a military unit, that is - individual survivors will make it back to Tarsh). The Sartarite (mostly Far Point, with Praxian exiles and strange mercenary allies) guerilla is fit to slug it out on a semi-conventional battlefield. The Phargantites keep the favor of the king, but much of their rebuilding has gone to ashes (again).
Desperate rebuilding starts about then...
There still is a quite large and fairly veteran, but strictly disbanded military force in Tarsh: the Fazzurites. While I expect that in each of these disasters there will have been Fazzurite veterans in the Tarshite forces whose material needs and general Tarshite patriotism overcame their dislike of the Phargantites, reactivating Fazzur's household troops would be desastrous for the kings. During the 1630 invasion of Tarsh the Fazzurite lands are somehow left aside as neutral territory - the action concentrates on the Reaching Moon Temple and Furthest.
>>The occupations in "Thunder Rebels" are focussed on clansmen. IMO >>the "Cavalry Soldier" equivalent in Sartar is an advanced occupation, >>and implies leaving the clan behind (joining a king's warband, or >>similar) for considerable time spans. Since the Lunar occupation, >>only on the tribal level and no longer on city confederation or >>principality level. Prior to the occupation, the keyword may have >>been more accessible...
> The trouble with this interpretation is the numbers involved. The
> seven "cavalry" counters in WBRM represent most if not all the full
> time warriors that the population of Sartar could support. Yet we
> know that most full time warriors are part of clan warbands.
>>Sartarite history still has those cavalry moments in King of Sartar, >>and the one or two Orlanth battle myths in that book have Orlanth >>and his followers charging into battle, too.
> There are plenty of historical cases of mounted infantry charging
> into battle. There's even a case of horse artillery doing so!
> I had a quick look though KoS but couldn't find any mention of
> Sartarite cavalry and I don't recall any.
Battle of Karnge Farm, 1550: the Sartarite prince leads a mounted charge out of a wood, into the flank or rear of the Lunar force. As a result, former King Philigos gets killed before the chance of reinstatement. Phargentes escapes hale, and a few weeks later ambushes a small force around Palashee, and takes him down in personal combat (sacrificing his arm).
>>One of the first implications of the Lunar occupation was to disband all >>those regimental structures. I suspect that many standards of the city >>militias are hidden away, along with a barely tended guardian.
> If these city militias exist other than as a way of representing
> the tribal fyrds in the boardgame
> I don't see them organised as
> regimental structures with officers and standards. At best they
> will be ad-hoc groupings of tribal fyrds and warbands.
Of course, the cities offer the bait for any invading force, too. But I don't see the tribal kings standing on the city walls in defense. In 1602 Runegate was an exception (not a confederated city, but a tribal place). We don't know much about Wilmskirk except that after successful mundane resistance it hastened to surrender when the Glowspot became visible on the horizon.
Kallyr's rebellion used volunteer forces from the local tribes. Including large portions of the warbands, sometimes in their entirety (frex. Culbrea). Minaryth Purple helped Kallyr (?) organize them into cohesive units, and Hofstaring led them into the decisive battles. While many people in the forces probably would have been part of the city militias before the occupation, the make-up of the forces of the Rebellion differed. In Jonstown the Malani abstained, the Cinsina came only on an individual basis, and the Maboder were no more. Making them appear as "city militia" would have affronted the Culbrea under these circumstances. The rebellion was a tribal affair, not that of the principality. After 1625, that may have changed back. Received on Mon 25 Sep 2006 - 12:03:40 EEST
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0 : Wed 18 Jul 2007 - 23:38:21 EEST