[Glorantha] Re: More Sartarite cavalry

Me

>>The occupations in "Thunder Rebels" are focussed on clansmen. IMO the
>>"Cavalry Soldier" equivalent in Sartar is an advanced occupation, and
>>implies leaving the clan behind (joining a king's warband, or similar) for
>>considerable time spans. Since the Lunar occupation, only on the tribal
>>level and no longer on city confederation or principality level. Prior to
>>the occupation, the keyword may have been more accessible...

James Holloway
> True, but even if a tribal king's warband are all mounted (which I agree
> they very well might be, and perfectly capable of fighting that way), I
> doubt there will be 500 of them, unless the king's warband is larger than
> an entire clan's fyrd. I don't really conceive of Orlanthi culture as
> being that top-heavy, somehow.

Let's put it this way: the warband consists of the core of full-time warriors and all those part-time warriors (like e.g. the clan "nobles") who go where the action is. Many of these clanspeople may well join up with the king when he goes to war without demanding all the clan warbands to follow (e.g. the raid on Bagnot around 1433).

It appears to be a Heortling custom to take leave for military expeditions in Fire Season - e.g. the Wolf Hunt of 1607 (or 1608?) saw lots of Sartarites fighting against (not for...) the Lunars or against (not for...) the Telmori.

>>Sartarite history still has those cavalry moments in King of Sartar, and
>>the  one or two Orlanth battle myths in that book have Orlanth and his
>>followers charging into battle, too.

> Absolutely -- I'm not saying that Sartarite warriors don't fight on
> horseback, or that their mythical progenitors didn't (although they were
> probably charging in the air or whatever).

You mean the steeds? Possible. The one instance I definitely recall away from the books is the Battle of Stormbreak (which had Orlanth divided into 48 pieces, almost irrecoverably).

> Let me use an example. Let's say
> you have 5,000 Lunar infantry and 500 Lunar cavalry. The Lunars might very
> well field those as a single 500-man cavalry regiment and five 1,000-man
> infantry regiments. In everyday practice, they probably work in small
> vexillations including both, but in a big pitched battle they fight with
> their units in their specified roles as cavalry and infantry.

No argument there (except that "Lunar" would mean "Dara Happan, Pelandan or Sylilan", or regular mercenary forces in the Cavalry Corps).

> Now, let's say you have 5,500 Orlanthi. A small proportion of them will be
> absolutely expert horsemen, members of horse-riding cults like Beren, or
> maybe Pol Joni exiles who've sworn loyalty to a particular chief. Others
> will be wealthy weaponthanes or nobles who own horses and have equal skill
> fighting at horseback or on foot.

Or people in the service of horse-owners who work them on a day-to-day basis, like the mounted cattle herders I mentioned before.

> Some of these will prefer to fight on
> foot and some on horseback. Some will ride past and throw javelins, while
> others will charge fiercely with swords and spears. Some will prefer to
> fly, or use movement magic to run alongside the horses.

This describes a motley band of champions. Useless against well-organized professionals, but impresses the hell out of part-timers.

> But I think you're
> very likely to have one largish group of horsemen around the tribal king,
> and then lots of little groups of about 1-200 men on foot, some of whom
> might also own horses, and 10-50 horsemen, some of whom might be ready to
> fight on foot at a moment's notice.

Basically you are describing a force of clan warbands here, complete with flank riders and a semi-competent shield wall.

This is what you get in Kallyr's Rebellion (because any greater cohesion has been destroyed), or from Wenelian or Aggarite hillmen.

This is also the kind of forces which get beaten 6 times out of 7 when facing a professional army like the aforementioned without the advantage of surprise, terrain or demoralization.

> Now, in wargame terms it might be
> easier to represent this as "these guys are infantry and those guys are
> cavalry," but I think that's an abstraction for the sake of convenience.

While there is an abstraction, there is an indication that the "cavalry" units have all men bring their horses to the battlefield, as opposed to "infantry" units (like e.g. the Sun Domers, who - from their description in the boardgame - consist of hoplites _and_ an element of light cavalry for guarding flanks and rear).
My reading of the DP counters is "these guys have horses _and_ can act as cavalry", not that they do so all the time. Some may be mounted infantry, some may be all-purpose riders, yet others pure cavalry.

> A Sartarite army is not an army in the same sense that a Lunar army is --
> it's a much looser, more changeable thing. In some ways, it's much less
> versatile -- a Sartarite general can't, on the spur of the moment, order
> all his fliers to one point, for instance -- but in some ways it's more
> versatile, because most clans, faced with a particular threat, will have
> at least someone who understands how to deal with it.

The Lunar army isn't much of a modern specialists army, either, apart from the two branches of Field Magic and Cavalry Corps. Most is a conglomerate of standing forces from various homelands kept in separate units (and this extends even into the specialist branches).

Perhaps there is a difference when a heroic leader calls for volunteers for an expeditionary force. I am thinking of Derik Pol Joni, who collected volunteers for his raid into Prax from all the tribes that had suffered, in addition to his core regiment of mounted exiles (from both Praxian and Grazer tribes). A man who could put Praxians on horses will have had no problem to organize Sartarites into regiments...

Inter-tribal forces organized by tribal leaders do well against disorganized foes, like the sack of Bagnot under Intagarn of the Colymar - probably right after King Orios had disappeared in Tork. Aided by surprise, they can overcome veteran armies, like in the battle of Minaryth's Flood (Hill of Orlanth Victorious).

That's also how the Princes of Sartar started their career as warleaders. Jarolar led a mounted charge out of Halswood near the battlefield, and that routed the Lunar rear and saved Palashee (who had been losing before their arrival).

(Aside: It seems that every Prince of Sartar broke one of the achievements of the Founder. Saronil alienated the Mostali by using their technology to build a temple to Orlanth, Jarolar became an active warleader at the head of an army. Jarosar might have had no opportunity in his short reign (though I'm quite certain not from lack of trying to do something hot-headed), but Tarkalor became known as Trollkiller when his grandfather had befriended the trolls (and even settled some in his capital city). I'll leave the sins of Terasarin to Jane...)

Great Orlanthi warleaders like Derik (or his friend Yarandros of Tarsh) form new traditions. Renowned leaders stand on their shoulders, like Jarolar at Karnge Farm (I suppose he did use Yarandros' tactics, maybe even his magic).

Sartar himself founded the city confederations both as defensive pacts and for peacemaking. Wilmskirk was no frontier region to any non-Quivini, but both Jonstown (Telmori) and Swenstown (Praxians) had very concrete threats. Duck Point would have had one (Upland Marsh, Beastfolk), too, but failed without Colymar support. Maybe Hauberk Jon started the tradition of the City Militia, inheriting from the common cause against the Telmori.

>>One of the first implications of the Lunar occupation was to disband all
>>those regimental structures. I suspect that many standards of the city
>>militias are hidden away, along with a barely tended guardian.

> That's a cool and exciting image, and I think it would make an excellent
> scenario, hiding the precious standard from the Lunars, or desperately
> trying to find it.

Yep. A nice side line for Kallyr's re-establishment of the Principality.

> I think it's also interesting that a lot of people have
> postulated a role for Sartar's magic in organizing the army -- Sartar was
> basically the hero who civilized the region, after all, and it's in his
> vision that a viable Orlanthi civilization can be found; an alternative to
> either feuding barbarism or Lunar domination.

Sartar did let others lead his armies when he needed to make a point before making a change (such as against the Telmori, who only started to negotiate after the death of their king), never using a weapon himself but his magic. The role of the common defense or reaction force of a city militia may have been formed at Jonstown and copied at Swenstown. On the other hand, Sartar probably would have used that concept to further his plans. Received on Mon 25 Sep 2006 - 14:15:17 EEST