[Glorantha] Sartar Military History

In message <64931.84.144.212.180.1159182220.squirrel@webmail.toppoint.de> "Joerg Baumgartner" writes:

>I'm fairly certain that there are lots of clans somewhat lacking
>on the specialist magic - just as there are lots of clans with
>low magical oomph for fighting in general.

That's just my point, clans will specialise in what is most use to them on a day to day basis. And there will be very few clans where horse riding never mind cavalry training is a common requirement.

>However, a clan herding cattle on the plains or in wide valleys is likely
>to have well trained horse-back herders available for reaction militia
>against raiders. It is from these that the cavalry warbands draw their
>recruits.

So you are suggesting that the Sartarite Cavalry units are largely made up of part time warriors who train together maybe a few times a year. And they have a combat value equal to full time regular Lunar cavalry?

Personally I doubt there are many places in Sartar where herding is done on horseback. It only makes sense where you have very large numbers of cattle or sheep and large open spaces. Rather each stead will have it's own herd of maybe 50 cattle usually moved by the same young lads who guard it maybe under the supervision of the stead's Oralmarn initiate - another cult that you would expect to have skills or magic related to horse riding if that was common.

>I'd say if the clan has neither a horsethane nor a warband guardian
>for getting mounted forces, chances are good that they occupy
>territory that's hostile to riders - because that's where they aren't
>at a survival disadvantage.

Certainly true of large chunks of Dragon Pass. Looking at the map about the only large areas of lowland occupied by Orlanthi are the Cinsina lands north of Jonstown and the Lismelder lands between the Upland Marsh and the Malani hills.

>That's why "horsethane" is a clan office along with weaponthane.
>Both are supposed to get into that shape.

Except there is no such office mentioned in any of the books. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist but it clearly isn't equally important.

>If the Hedkoranthi is supposed to act as field artillery, that's his lot,
>yes. Otherwise it's javelins (or dart) for horsemen, with the odd thrown
>axe rather unlikely (too expensive).

Whereas if the warband fight as mounted infantry - dismounting to attack on foot - he can pause for a moment to release the slingstone and catch up while getting the next up to speed.

>IMO the princes of Sartar mostly had the knack (or inherited magic) to
>instill an esprit-de-corps for their militia. When the Principality of
>Sartar went to war, it was under the banners (or whatever) of the Prince.
>Clan leaders or tribal kings become less prominent in foreign affairs
>(e.g. the sack of Bagnot) after the princes take over. Those that get
>renown do so for fulfilling offices given to them by the prince
>(Hofstaring, Kostajor).

I think this is where we disagree. The Princes of Sartar didn't create a national militia, they got the tribes to co-operate sufficently well that they could actually fight on the same side instead of squabbling about the feud that's supposed to have been settled every generation as far back as the bards can recall.

"Follow chosen leader" gives a very bottom up basis of command. The clansman chooses to follow his warband leader who chooses to follow the tribal warband leader who chooses to follow the Prince of Sartar. Now those choices are constrained by politics and vows made but it's very different from the top down approach you're suggesting where everyone is following the Prince and he then appoints sub-commanders.

For a RW example of how this operates, and the consequent problems, have a look at the organisation of the armies of the Stewart Pretenders in 1715 and 1745. However even the British army of the time had remnants of the system. Regiments were raised and equiped by a landowner on behalf of the government. He raised the men from his estates and appointed the officers himself.

I fact I can imagine Argrath's invasion of the Lunar Empire following the pattern of the 1745 quite closely. The Lunar armies defeated and falling back in disarray. Argrath wants to continue down the Oslir river to Glamour but his followers get worried about being so far from home and pursuade him to fall back to Furtherst. Eventually the Lunars get an army together and push him out of Tarsh.

>Minaryth Blue (in KoS) gives Dangerford 1625, Sword Hill 1627/8, Tarsh
>invasion 1630-32. That in addition to any losses suffered at Dragonrise.
>
>On the whole, I see a constant drainage of experienced soldiers to the
>conflicts. The survivors do get more experienced, but plenty of time for
>rebuilding?

A couple of years is enough in wartime provided you have a core of experienced troops to build your regiments on. The Dragonrise is a problem because unless there was a cadre of the regiments involved somewhere else there would be no survivors.

[snip history of Sartar/Tarsh war]

Fits the scenario I imagine. Armies made up mostly of hastily raised militia with a few units of professionals. Sometimes a professional unit gets badly mauled (as the magicans you mention) but more often most of the casualties are among the militia while the experienced troops retire in good order.

>When the prince calls, men of the warband get delegated. The King of
>Dragon Pass game has a similar situation when king Yarandros of Tarsh
>recruits mercenaries (and also several such lesser incidents with
>undead-hunting Humakti).

That's Tarsh not Sartar. I don't see Argrath having the authority to get warriors taken out of their warbands and transferred to separate units. He will have a personal following, which I can well imagine is cavalry, but those are individual warriors pledged to him personally. Even if Argrath does this, those warriors are mounted infantry (per BA) and Argrath isn't going to be able to retrain them as cavalry easily or quickly.

>I don't argue with your numbers, but about the make-up of those units.
>They would include lots of experienced part-time warriors, plus a
>necessary quota of green "recruits" with basic training.

Which I don't believe is reflected by a counter as powerful as the Sartar "cavalry" are.

>>>Sartarite history still has those cavalry moments in King of Sartar,
>>>and the one or two Orlanth battle myths in that book have Orlanth
>>>and his followers charging into battle, too.
>
>> There are plenty of historical cases of mounted infantry charging
>> into battle. There's even a case of horse artillery doing so!
>> I had a quick look though KoS but couldn't find any mention of
>> Sartarite cavalry and I don't recall any.
>
>Battle of Karnge Farm, 1550: the Sartarite prince leads a mounted charge
>out of a wood, into the flank or rear of the Lunar force. As a result,
>former King Philigos gets killed before the chance of reinstatement.
>Phargentes escapes hale, and a few weeks later ambushes a small force
>around Palashee, and takes him down in personal combat (sacrificing his
>arm).

Neither of which necessarily requires a large cavalry force.

>The tribal fyrds don't get moved around to garrison duty, only volunteer
>units (like e.g. the one Minaryth Blue joined in the Tarsh invasion) did
>get represented. A clan fyrd would never field enough strength to be more
>than a terrain modifier in that game. A tribal mobilisation might qualify
>for a counter. Those appear in the Free Army (a 3-3-4 Colymar counter,
>mounted, and another for Two-Ridge Farm, i.e. the Malani with their local
>Humakt temple).

Most of the tribal fyrds have a thousand men. The Colymar with a population of 15,500 will have about 4,000 fyrdmen. If you work on the basis of 5% of any tribe to be full time warriors the Colymar will have 775 and and the Malani 550. In both cases more than enough for a mounted counter.

If you are saying that the city units are additional to the tribal ones where do the cities get the population to support them? Nine thousand militia would imply an urban population of about 30,000 which seems awful high to be supported by a rural population of about 105,000. Nor are they any more mobile than the tribal fyrds, they exist to protect their city.

>I regard them as trained defense forces of the cities, from an tribal
>background in those cities - as the numbers have it, one (garrison?) force
>(1000 men nominally) on foot and one mounted reaction force (nominally
>500). This clearly is higher than the number of men living in the smaller
>cities, so yes, the surrounding tribes will be called to put together such
>a force (which may explain the extra role for the confederation-less
>Colymar).
>
>However: these are the warriors supposed to defend the cities, not
>necessarily the surrounding lands. _That's_ tribal fyrd business.

So the clans in those tribes not only support a clan fyrd at least part of which makes up the tribal fyrd but part of that makes up a city militia which concentrates on defending not their own homes but a nearby city. And then the Prince of Sartar can march them away to war in Tarsh or wherever. Sounds more like a modern army than anything existing before the 20th Century.

> In Jonstown the Malani abstained, the Cinsina came only on an
>individual basis, and the Maboder were no more. Making them appear as
>"city militia" would have affronted the Culbrea under these circumstances.
>The rebellion was a tribal affair, not that of the principality. After
>1625, that may have changed back.

I'm sure the Orlanthi would find many things to be affronted by in our represenations. Particularly the crudeties imposed by boardgame requirements.

-- 
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/