Me:
>>I'm fairly certain that there are lots of clans somewhat lacking >>on the specialist magic - just as there are lots of clans with >>low magical oomph for fighting in general.
Donald Oddy
> That's just my point, clans will specialise in what is most use
> to them on a day to day basis. And there will be very few clans
> where horse riding never mind cavalry training is a common
> requirement.
When I said "lots of clans that don't" I meant to imply "lots of clans that do", not "very few clans". Clans which have horses for the warband and warband trainees will give their warband trainees horse training. The number of potential mounted warriors - part-time or professional - will be limited by the number of war-trained horses, not warriors.
Pack horses are part of the Household Goddesses duties - even two out of ten. Horses aren't unusual in Heortling society.
>>However, a clan herding cattle on the plains or in wide valleys is likely >>to have well trained horse-back herders available for reaction militia >>against raiders. It is from these that the cavalry warbands draw their >>recruits.
> So you are suggesting that the Sartarite Cavalry units are largely
> made up of part time warriors who train together maybe a few times
> a year.
Just like any other proto-feudal fighting force (or indeed the voluntary fire brigades of our time), the cavalry units _as large units_ will train together maybe a few times a year. The individual part-time warriors will be expected to train more often, with their clan warband, the tribal warband, or just individually.
Under the Princes of Sartar (from Sartar to Salinarg), this was part of the annual social routine. A great opportunity to go to exciting places (either for training or on campaign), a place to meet comrades in arms again.
There is no prohibition against individual Sartarite warrior clansmen (part-time or professional) to be part of other forces. In fact, having friendly relationships to warriors outside one's own clan helps the clan to call in support in times of need. "Ulf, don't you have friends among the Annmagarn? You'll accompany our herald." Sending warriors to aid other clans is an established practice. Sending warriors on the behest of a prince or other mighty warlord (such as Tarkalor, during Saronil's and Jarolar's reign) is little different.
> And they have a combat value equal to full time regular Lunar cavalry?
Generally, the hill barbarians are reckoned to be undisciplined but proficient warriors by the lowlanders. A Heortling farmer or shepherd of no special military call is expected to fight as well as a Lodrili wet farmer militiaman with several months training.
One of the units which shares the same DP stats as the city militia is Count Alehandro's private Spolite regiment in the Cavalry Corps. Now Alehandro's cavalry is considered to be veteran, maybe even elite. In this case, the answer will probably be "they aren't full strength". Too many to be a hero counter, not many enough to come to par with Argrath's bodyguard units (Sword Brothers etc).
> Personally I doubt there are many places in Sartar where herding
> is done on horseback. It only makes sense where you have very
> large numbers of cattle or sheep and large open spaces.
Like broad valley bottoms, or perhaps where you have the need to drive the herd quickly away as mounted raiders (Praxians) approach.
> Rather each stead will have it's own herd of maybe 50 cattle usually
> moved by the same young lads who guard it maybe under the
> supervision of the stead's Oralmarn initiate - another cult that
> you would expect to have skills or magic related to horse riding
> if that was common.
Heortling cattle management still is an issue. Heortlings practice transhumance, meaning they move their herds to distant summer pasturage during Fire Season to give their closer meadows time to regenerate (or grow up for hay-making). That means the cattle will be _some_ distance from the stead. Dairy production requires either lots of herdwomen out with the lads, or steady long distance contact - presumably on horseback, unless you want to have alpine high pastures for your clan where a single milk maid keeps about a dozen cows and produces cheese and butter during the summer.
Orolmarn has animal handling skills. Presumably on horseback, too. You don't migrate with herds of cattle only on foot...
>>I'd say if the clan has neither a horsethane nor a warband guardian >>for getting mounted forces, chances are good that they occupy >>territory that's hostile to riders - because that's where they aren't >>at a survival disadvantage.
> Certainly true of large chunks of Dragon Pass. Looking at the map
> about the only large areas of lowland occupied by Orlanthi are
> the Cinsina lands north of Jonstown and the Lismelder lands
> between the Upland Marsh and the Malani hills.
The Colymar and the Two-Ridge Farm counters show mounted warriors, meaning that valley bottoms evidently can be home to riders.
There are quite a few wide valleys in Sartar - starting with Killard Vale just below Boldhome, adding the Wilmskirk flats (home to Ulanin the Rider), and adding the Praxian fringes. Why, the Kultain settled the soft rolling hills where Ulanin's stallion used to roam...
Places where horses are useless are few, IMO. Most clans live in pleasant valleys, not forbidding canyons.
>>If the Hedkoranthi is supposed to act as field artillery, that's his lot, >>yes. Otherwise it's javelins (or dart) for horsemen, with the odd thrown >>axe rather unlikely (too expensive).
> Whereas if the warband fight as mounted infantry - dismounting to
> attack on foot - he can pause for a moment to release the slingstone
> and catch up while getting the next up to speed.
Sure. Fighting as mounted infantry won't stop mounted raiders, though, so they must have some routine to do their job from horseback, too.
>>IMO the princes of Sartar mostly had the knack (or inherited magic) to >>instill an esprit-de-corps for their militia. When the Principality of >>Sartar went to war, it was under the banners (or whatever) of the Prince. >>Clan leaders or tribal kings become less prominent in foreign affairs >>(e.g. the sack of Bagnot) after the princes take over. Those that get >>renown do so for fulfilling offices given to them by the prince >>(Hofstaring, Kostajor).
> I think this is where we disagree. The Princes of Sartar didn't
> create a national militia,
Not in the sense of putting a Kultain, a Torkani and a Lismelder warrior into a single squad.
I agree that on "squad" level, clan groups will probably remain together, led by a respected warrior from their clan. Several such squads would be formed if a clan sent a larger contingent, though - simply for the purpose of having people to keep watch, go on patrol, etc. Having a missile squad and a shield wall squad makes some sense to clansfolk, too.
When it comes to manning the walls of say Jonstown, you won't see the Culbrea guarding the east, the Malani the west, etc. Instead, groups of Culbrea, Malani, Cinsina and at better times Maboder or Dinacoli warriors would stand on neighboring sections of the walls, looking out for enemies or actively fighting them off (which would have been rare - up to Terasarin, all major Sartarite battles were fought west of the principality, and the last major invasions had been before the cities were founded). Still, city defense would have been a joint effort by warriors of the confederated tribes.
Terasarin may have had to fight off Lunar forces on Sartarite ground. Any ideas whether this was the case, or whether he managed to keep fighting the foes outside of Sartar?
So, in cases of "national levies", a clan would send part of their warband, and keep part of it at home.
> they got the tribes to co-operate
> sufficently well that they could actually fight on the same side
> instead of squabbling about the feud that's supposed to have
> been settled every generation as far back as the bards can recall.
Tribes is not a problem - feuds are clan business, and the same trouble has already been solved by successful tribal kings, without the Sartar dynasty.
Besides, the Lunar "Army" has the very same problems. Place a Darjiinite and an Alkothi unit on the same wing only if your tactic relies on that wing folding in. The Lunars have this problem at tribal (i.e. army units of tribal size) scale, the Sartarites on clan scale.
> "Follow chosen leader" gives a very bottom up basis of command.
> The clansman chooses to follow his warband leader
Or any other suitable leader. The cultist chooses his cult leader, the veteran of earlier such ventures joins up with other veterans of that heroband...
> who chooses to follow the tribal warband leader
or not...
> who chooses to follow the Prince of Sartar.
or someone else, e.g. that dashing young bastard Tarkalor (unless that's who the clan warband leader chose, against the choice of the tribal warband leader).
Point is: There is a choice who to follow. One makes a pledge at the outset of a campaign. Joining the warband for an "out of area" mission is entirely voluntary unless you are a sworn weaponthane. Joining a heroband instead is a honourable choice for an individual not sworn in that way. That could be a cult warband, or a heroband formed for some other reason that has "dormant" members who have a normal life.
> Now those choices are constrained by politics
> and vows made but it's very different from the top down approach
> you're suggesting where everyone is following the Prince and he
> then appoints sub-commanders.
Did I suggest that?
I said the tribes of the confederation made a pledge to provide warriors for the city. Inside the tribes, the kings demand a certain number of warriors from the clan chiefs, who usually take them from their warbands - weaponthanes and part-time fighters, led by a seasoned leader, possibly but not necessarily the warband leader. After all, there is an entire clan to defend, and not every clan has an Elmali contingent to do so while the Orlanthi warriors gallivant elsewhere.
In cases of city defense, it might even make sense to send those Elmali...
So the clans will send groups of warriors (and supporters) to the city muster. They will have to cooperate with groups from other clans, the majority of them from other tribes as well. The tribal kings may be present. So will the mayor of the city. If the prince called for the muster, then either he in person or a very close companion of his will be present (Orngerin instead of Kallyr - see what I mean?).
Whoever presides over the muster (let's call him Orngerin) calls for riders to meet the prince at earliest notice, so those clan groups who have riders can present themselves and vie for the honor (and greater chance of getting booty) to be included in that forward element. Those who did not come on horseback cannot join, sorry - another experienced clansman warrior can bring them into the main body of the muster. Each group leader pledges for the ability and willingness of his group. Lots of boasting etc. to be heard, some favoritism ("Asborn - well met again! Come, bring your boys and join the riders!") etc. at play.
> For a RW example of how this operates, and the consequent problems,
> have a look at the organisation of the armies of the Stewart
> Pretenders in 1715 and 1745. However even the British army of
> the time had remnants of the system. Regiments were raised and
> equiped by a landowner on behalf of the government. He raised
> the men from his estates and appointed the officers himself.
Ok, I looked that up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_Rising#The_.27Fifteen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_Rising#The_.27Forty-Five.27 for those of us of different cultural background...
My real world example is the Ditmarsian resistance against the King of Denmark at Hemmingstedt, 17th February 1500. The Ditmarsians were one of several Farmer Republics on the German North Sea coast, with a social structure quite similar to that of the Heortlings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hemmingstedt
What the English language sources don't tell is the fact that the farmers republic had resisted earlier attempts to conquer it as well, and therefore had a well-trained militia.
Now have such militia voluntarily follow a prince...
Problems with part-time warriors are always the same, although Minaryth Blue and his company appear to have signed up for full-time duty.
Perhaps another good parallel would be another event closer to my home, the Schleswig-Holstein uprising which saw lots of volunteers from all over Germany fight alongside the locals in free-corps regiments. When the prince calls, such herobands may come up. Or they may lay dormant until the prince calls.
I would be extremely surprised if there weren't several members of such herobands in any given clan. No better way to spend temporary exile, for instance.
>>Minaryth Blue (in KoS) gives Dangerford 1625, Sword Hill 1627/8, Tarsh >>invasion 1630-32. That in addition to any losses suffered at Dragonrise.
>>On the whole, I see a constant drainage of experienced soldiers to the >>conflicts. The survivors do get more experienced, but plenty of time for >>rebuilding?
> A couple of years is enough in wartime provided you have a core
> of experienced troops to build your regiments on. The Dragonrise
> is a problem because unless there was a cadre of the regiments
> involved somewhere else there would be no survivors.
Which is why Fazzur and his veterans were sent to Dangerford. Stabbing his back before the battle was an extremely stupid thing to do...
After that, the Phargantites appear to me as a body of officers rather than a body of veterans. While they try themselves at the von Clausewitz routine, their schemes fall apart at Sword Hill, taking several professional units with them.
> [snip history of Sartar/Tarsh war]
> Fits the scenario I imagine. Armies made up mostly of hastily raised
> militia with a few units of professionals. Sometimes a professional
> unit gets badly mauled (as the magicans you mention) but more often
> most of the casualties are among the militia while the experienced
> troops retire in good order.
You forget the devastating effect rearguard actions can have on such "cadre" elements. When Jarosar's bodyguard and the Iron Maiden regiment annihilated one another at the Battle of Dwarf Ford, only the previous exploits of his uncle Tarkalor offered a new core of veterans for the principality. Likewise, I think you underestimate the effect of Kallyr's victory in 1625. A battle that looks undecisive can easily be fought well past military sense, and if there are units that cover the retreat for others, those are usually veteran units taking bad losses or even facing annihilation.
Lunar Tarsh might be able to sacrifice peasant militia if the farmwork could be given over to slaves, but otherwise the hill barbarian tradition (including Sylilans) has the nobles guarding the rear while the farming population escapes, in order to raise another army for the next heroic leader.
>>When the prince calls, men of the warband get delegated. The King of >>Dragon Pass game has a similar situation when king Yarandros of Tarsh >>recruits mercenaries (and also several such lesser incidents with >>undead-hunting Humakti).
More to my point - warriors get sent to foreign endeavours even without any obligation to a prince.
> I don't see Argrath having the authority
> to get warriors taken out of their warbands and transferred to
> separate units. He will have a personal following, which I can
> well imagine is cavalry, but those are individual warriors
> pledged to him personally. Even if Argrath does this, those
> warriors are mounted infantry (per BA) and Argrath isn't going
> to be able to retrain them as cavalry easily or quickly.
The "Free Army" is supposed to be a conglomerate of hero bands - many of these Sartarite exiles after 1613.
>>I don't argue with your numbers, but about the make-up of those units. >>They would include lots of experienced part-time warriors, plus a >>necessary quota of green "recruits" with basic training.
> Which I don't believe is reflected by a counter as powerful as
> the Sartar "cavalry" are.
That takes training and equipment. On the equipment side, we have the battles of Dangerford and Sword Hill for regaining some basics, plus the effect of many exiles flooding back to their homeland. Training could be on the job - like the 1628 Heortland expedition under Asborn Four-born that Minaryth Blue (as unlikely a warrior as you will find in Sartar) was part of.
One of the Argrath's hangs out with the Grazers, too - some training potential there.
>>Battle of Karnge Farm, 1550: the Sartarite prince leads a mounted charge >>out of a wood, into the flank or rear of the Lunar force. As a result, >>former King Philigos gets killed before the chance of reinstatement. >>Phargentes escapes hale, and a few weeks later ambushes a small force >>around Palashee, and takes him down in personal combat (sacrificing his >>arm).
> Neither of which necessarily requires a large cavalry force.
A Lunar counterinvasion led by Phargentes and Philigos would have been on the scale of the Dragon Pass boardgame battles (in fact, it would make a nifty scenario). With the Sartarite forces possibly represented by the Barbarian Horde (minus magicians)...
>>The tribal fyrds don't get moved around to garrison duty, only volunteer >>units (like e.g. the one Minaryth Blue joined in the Tarsh invasion) did >>get represented. A clan fyrd would never field enough strength to be more >>than a terrain modifier in that game. A tribal mobilisation might qualify >>for a counter. Those appear in the Free Army (a 3-3-4 Colymar counter, >>mounted, and another for Two-Ridge Farm, i.e. the Malani with their local >>Humakt temple).
> Most of the tribal fyrds have a thousand men. The Colymar with a
> population of 15,500 will have about 4,000 fyrdmen. If you work
> on the basis of 5% of any tribe to be full time warriors the Colymar
> will have 775 and and the Malani 550. In both cases more than enough
> for a mounted counter.
Trouble with fyrdmen: they don't fight out of area.
And my point about the Colymar and Malani counters is: they come as addition to the contingents already subsumed in the "city militia".
> If you are saying that the city units are additional to the tribal
> ones where do the cities get the population to support them? Nine
> thousand militia would imply an urban population of about 30,000
> which seems awful high to be supported by a rural population of
> about 105,000. Nor are they any more mobile than the tribal fyrds,
> they exist to protect their city.
That's misunderstanding me. The "city militia" counters are warriors from the confederated tribes detached to the joint defensive of the city. The tribes did swear oaths to do so, under the impression of regular Telmori raids (Jonstown) or Praxian raids (Swenstown). Intelligent management by the subsequent princes led to less demand in city defense but increased demand in out-of-area campaigns, usually promising rewards and renown, so I posit that the originally defensive units became not part of the standing army, but a trained militia that could quickly be mobilized. How else could the princes from Jarolar to Terasarin fight the Lunars outside of Sartar?
>>However: these are the warriors supposed to defend the cities, not >>necessarily the surrounding lands. _That's_ tribal fyrd business.
> So the clans in those tribes not only support a clan fyrd at least
> part of which makes up the tribal fyrd but part of that makes up
> a city militia which concentrates on defending not their own homes
> but a nearby city. And then the Prince of Sartar can march them
> away to war in Tarsh or wherever. Sounds more like a modern army
> than anything existing before the 20th Century.
Sounds like the ship districts of Harald Finehair of Norway, or the Hundreds of the Anglo-Saxons. Any warrior king will have such a structure behind him, or he won't be a warrior king. This is what "barbarians" are good at.
Also, this is the root of the feudal system. The earliest feudal system started codifying the farmer republics that chose to support a king. The Anglo-Saxons made an early way into feudalism because their invasion required kings to lead them in, likewise with the Germanic tribes that made their way across the Alps or the Rhine. Those who remained at home happily murdered every prospective king (like e.g. Arminius, when he tried to capitalize his role as warleader against Varus) and maintained a system that (ironically) is best documented in the Icelandic Sagas.
>> Making them appear as >> "city militia" would have affronted the Culbrea under these >> circumstances.
> I'm sure the Orlanthi would find many things to be affronted by in
> our represenations. Particularly the crudeties imposed by boardgame
> requirements.
Still, that boardgame is their origin.
The land is called Sartar because of those cities. Without those, it would be an on-and-off Quivini confederation, depending on whether there was a strong leader or not. Much like the Solanthi.
Without those cities, the Empire would never have bothered to conquer the Quivini - they would have gone for Esrolia at once, probably suborning the Grazers by granting them the Quivini tribes as Vendref for the taking.
As I said in my reply to Mark, those cities are what keeps me interested in Sartar. Barbarians I can get just about anywhere. Who would care about Balazar without the citadels? Received on Wed 27 Sep 2006 - 13:22:23 EEST
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