[Glorantha] Re: Sartar Military History

Simon Phipp

> A long post from Joerg Baumgartner:

>>There is no prohibition against individual Sartarite warrior clansmen
>>(part-time or professional) to be part of other forces. In fact, having
>>friendly relationships to warriors outside one's own clan helps the clan
>>to call in support in times of need.

> In my opinion, one of the things that Sartar did, and his descendants
> continued to do, was to weaken Clan/Tribal ties. Sartar is defined by
> its cities, as Joerg points out later on. Thise cities are the result of
> confederations of tribes. Had the kingdom of Sartar carried on for
> another couple of centuries, the clans would have been relegated in
> importance.

> One of the most interesting thing about Sartar is that it has changed
> the makeup and organisation of the clans. In fact, I am surprised that
> people talk about Heortling this and Heortling that, when Sartar has
> changed Heortling culture to be something else.

> In fact, where are Heortlings? Sartar has tribal confederations in the
> cities and clans/tribes in the hills. The Holy Country has had the
> Pharoah messing about with Heortling culture for several centuries and
> has changed the way they work. The Lunar Empire has changed the face of
> these tribes in Tarsh, the other Provinces and the rest of the Empire.
> Traditional Heortlings might still be around in Talastar and surrounding
> areas, but they are fast being Lunarised. So, I think you'd be hard
> pushed to find any country that has Traditional Heortlings around in any
> great number.

> As part of declanning the tribes, Sartar would have tried to put
> together nationwide or citywide organisations, so that he couldn't be
> held to ransom by tribal leaders negotiating whether to suport him in
> battle or to stay away. So, later on the Household of Death is a
> non-clan based organisation that supports the Prince/King. I would
> suspect that there were others over the years.

The Household of Death is special in a number of ways - it is made up from children of the doomed royal house (and presumably joined by playmates, and bolstered by warriors shamed by their successes), who aquire demigod-like death abilities through unusual means. It is not an organisation drawn from the cities, but simply a heroband.

>>Anyway, my point of this exercise: Sartarite princes led sizeable armies
>>outside of their lands. Any kind of "fyrd" under the definition in
>> Thunder
>>Rebels would not have been involved. Instead, they must have used some
>>form of mobilisation of forces. Members of clan warbands must have been
>>involved, but I'd like to see the clan that sent its entire warband -
>>great plunder opportunities...

>>So, in cases of "national levies", a clan would send part of their >>warband, and keep part of it at home.

> A warband would not like to have been split. Their tactics depend on every
> man knowing his place, if half of them were away, the warband would be
> less effective. Where a clan has several warbands, one might have gone and
> one stayed behind.

I used the term "warband" as a cover for all warlike activities of the clan. It makes sense to have several divisions of the warband - such as emergency forces to gather at outlying steads, or bands that go cattle-raiding. Not sure such tactics are dependent on a certain individual at any position.

> In fact, I reckon only the smallest of clans would have
> a single warband. Others would have at least two, probably more. Tribal
> armies would have been made up of warbands from the clans, fighting
> together under their respective commanders.

I find it quite likely to have a homeguard and a raiding band, but mostly they will exchange individuals. Professional warriors rely on their share of booty, and will take a dim view at eternal posts in the homeguard.

>>The same would be true for meetings of the city confederation. The clans
>>would send a good number (but not all) of their warband to the "fair and
>>maneuvers" event, along with traders, religious people (especially the
>>minority cults), and people out to enjoy others.

> Each tribe in the confederation would have to send a number of troops to
> the city.

The way I see it, these troops would be there part-time. Some for regular guard duties (taking shifts), most only for communal events or when summoned. They are not a standing army.

> If they stayed there, they would become urbanised and would tend
> to make up the core of the city forces. The longer they stayed, the less
> clan loyalties they would have.

Too bad that they could not be kept there all the time, then - as Donald points out, in order to keep them fed, they need to stay with their clans much of the time. Regularly exposing them to the cities will do its work, though.

> So, a number os smaller warbands joining together to make a larger
> warband, in this case the City Defence.

Sure. That's what the musters are all about.

> As Prince of Sartar, leter King of Sartar/Dragon Pass, Argrath would
> have had exactly that right - to command the movement of troops. Maybe
> warbands would not have been split, but lesser warbands would have been
> moved.

Along the lines "I want the Annmagarn, Taraling and Ernaldori spearmen take position over there, but I need a large body of slingers and archers in the center."

Donald Oddy

> While I'm basing my arguments on the 1610/1620 information because
> that's what we have most of, I'm certainly interested in the longer
> timescale. It's just that I see that strong magic is needed to get
> different tribes co-operating. For Sartar to alter the basic social
> structure of the society (city centred rather than tribe centred)
> in 1492. Then the structure to fall back to tribe centred in 1602
> and the magic to be rekindled about 1625 and go back to city centred
> very quickly seems unlikely.

Not in 1625, but in 1628. Relighting the Flame of Sartar will reawaken that magic, and possibly invigorate the weak guardians of the city forces. It's a magic switch.

The tribal structure (plus some bickering about the cities, whose confederations quickly alienate their tribes) is all that's available after 1602. The tribes also are the taxation units of the Lunars (who treat the cities as entities apart).

>>Now, what force could Jarolar mobilize?

> Why would it be much more difficult to summon the tribes?

Three cities can be covered by three trusted companions. 24 tribes... You see where that leads.

> Even if
> Sartar's roads had deliberately bypassed tribal centres in the 1490s
> those centres would have migrated to be near if not on the roads.

In case of the Cinsina, that may be the case (now a center at Dangerford), but neither for Culbrea, Malani, Colymar or Lismelder.

> In any case the map in the DP gazetteer shows clan level settlements
> on those roads.

The clans whose lands were cut by these roads no doubt profited from the trade, and may have become more likely to present kings of their tribes. Other tribal centers of power - like holy places - did not move around.

>>Anyway, this event might cement the need for organized musters across
>>the principality. There might be a tradition for mounted and even foot
>>reaction forces, mustered by the city confederations. There might be
>>city militia warbands with traditions of battles fought for the princes.
>>There might be banners or other insignia, and there might be guardians
>>for those units. Until the principality is conquered.

> Let's just think what happens to such forces when Sartar is conquered.
> The Lunars have two choices - disband them and provide troops to
> control and police the cities. Or purge them of suspect elements,
> provide officers and use them as garrisons/police. With the former
> you have a large number of at least partly trained fighters who are
> probably disgruntled. With the latter you don't have to provide
> garrisons who are going to spend most of their time keeping order.

As far as I know, they never had dared to try the latter approach. Imagine the conquest of Carmania policed by Carmanian hazars after removing a few nobles. That's a recipe for almost immediate rebellion.

What they could have done is take these forces, let them don red cloaks, and field them in Oraya to fight of Pentans.

> However if the cities, and some towns, are mustering points for
> the tribal warbands and fyrds they melt back into the countryside
> on conquest and the Lunars have to deal with the tribal structure
> as the current publications indicate.

These militiamen I was talking about do melt back into the countryside. But they are the ones who will come when summoned, and they will bring some experience. If more forces are needed in an emergency, they may help bring along volunteers.

> The other problem I have with city forces is what are they? If
> they are part-time militia they are going to be on a par with
> the Tarshite ones. If they are full time warriors then how are
> they supported in the numbers indicated. The 500 warriors you
> indicate as provided by the smaller cities is a heck of a
> large number for somewhere with a population of between 1,000
> and 5,000. Indeed a city of a thousand wouldn't be able to
> raise more than 300 part-time militiamen.

They are maybe 10% of the city population, mostly lots of rural hicks sent by their clans, due to old obligations. It's a spread communal activity, similar to upkeep and expansion of the roads, building dams or fortifications - activities carefully pursued even by the most sloppy princes of Sartar. I wouldn't be too surprised if part of their militia service was work on the fortifications or roads.

There will be some quota of full-time warriors, and a greater number of young lads in it for the experience and veteran part-timers in it for memories and comradeship during the boring time of Fire Season.

A nice side effect of this is an overall reduction of forces available for clan feuds - surely a point that would not have escaped the princes.

Few of these forces would be available during Sea and Earth Season, when farming takes up all available forces. During Dark and Storm Season, I can see several small bands from various clans occupying the tribal halls in the cities.

So now we are back on the quality issue - what are these militamen worth?

Equipment would be average to good, depending on the recent successes or losses of the Princes in their campaigns. Motivation ought to be good - it is a honor to fight for the prince, who are generous, too. Most of the princes are heroic leaders, too, leading by example.

Why are they (slightly) better than their Tarshite counterparts? IMO because the Tarshites send away their most professional units to serve in the Cavalry Corps. Fazzur was famous as a cavalry commander, and his estates were used as breeding ground for his own cavalry forces.

Why are those forces absent from the game? Several factors: Dragonkill, Fazzurite withdrawal at and after the battle of Dangerford. Since Fazzur owns the horses, he can effectively remove his own cavalry units from Tatius' command. He can even afford to keep a lot of them on "half-pay" for a time, which is how he could respond so quickly to the Dragonkill. And he could retire them as quickly back home to guard his holdings when the Phargantite treachery of 1625 showed that this was required.

Other Tarshite forces would have been required to witness the Temple inauguration in Sartar. Probably some of the best Yarandros-tradition horsemen the Phargantites could muster, certainly none of Fazzur's haughty veterans. Eaten.

If you want more reasons why the Tarshite militia may suck, consult Tarsh War... Received on Thu 28 Sep 2006 - 12:56:06 EEST