[Glorantha] Re: Worshiping specific ancestors

Simon asks interesting questions:

> This implies that such ancestors cannot be worshiped as individuals because
> they lose their individuality. (As an asside I think what this means is that
> don't just forget their individuality, they actualy have no individuality,
> but that's getting even more technical). They can only be contacted as part
> of the geenric host of ancestors, and are eventualy reincarnated.

I think this is more a limitation of certain pantheons than it is a univerally true fact. For Praxians, for example, I think that the Daka Fal cult allows them to contact dead ancestors that are not a collective. Further, the Praxians trace ancestry oddly. Their personal spirit knot includes one knot that makes them more closely related (for magical purposes) to a distant ancestor than to their grandparents. (Or at least, that's how I interpret it facilely.) This makes no sense if all ancestors lose ther individuality.

Heortlings, I think, simply lack the magic to contact individual ancestors who are not heroes. Since most of what it written for HQ is about Heortlings, we get the impression that ancestors uniformly lack individuality. I think that's in the eye of the beholder.

Switching back to my Praxians, I think that the situations in which a character can pick out an ancestor are limited. On initiation, the ancestors of the person's knot might be distinguishable, but the person is also surrounded by indistinguishable ancestral spirits. Shamans can distinguish individual ancestors, with the same effort as distinguishing other spirits. Daka Fali can do so with much less effort for ancestors, but basically can't do it for other spirits any better than anyone else.

> But what happens to heroes who become immortal? My theory is that they do
> this by purifying themselves so that they are nolonger mixed beings. They
> are pure spirits, theist souls or essences and that's why they are immortal.
> They are now realy denizens of the appropriate otherworld, and are
> no longer bound by the cycle of birth and death. Hence they are immortals. In
> other worlds mixed being and mortal are the same thing. An excelent example
> would be Theist saints, who we know work like this as they have ther own
> Nodes on the Essence plane.
>
> However does this apply to specific ancestors contacted through ancestor
> worship? Is it actualy possible for ancestors who are still part of the
> cycle of birth and death to maintain individuality somehow? What happens if
> they are reincarnated? This possibility seems very problematic, and I don't
> see how it could work.

I think that cults that engage in ancestor worship can see the individuality where others cannot. Put another way, the lack of individuality is a feature of the spirit doing the looking, not the spirit being seen. Daka Fali can, for example, incarnate their ancestors. They are expressing its individuality. Daka Fali can also ask the ancestors things like "What happened here?" and get meaningful responses. (But look out for crazy Aunt Betty.) That's what gives the Daka Fal cult such a significant place in Praxian society. They have powers and knowledge derived from the ancestors.

As to individuality being retained after rebirth, many cultures have myths of being washed clean of memories. E.g., the river Lethe. When that fails, the person becomes aware of their past lives. I think it is birth, not death, that wipes the slate clean.

I have no idea what this means for the rest of Glorantha, but it works for what I think about Praxians.

Chris Received on Thu 15 Feb 2007 - 16:13:20 EET