[Glorantha] Re: Glorantha Digest, Vol 13, Issue 32

Simon Hibbs

> I've been in a discussion on the MRQ forum, and would like to ask opinions
> here as it's getting quite technical. The question is concerning ancestor
> worship, specificaly the difference between worshiping ancestors
> genericaly and worshiping specific ancestors such as tribal founders.

You are sort of mixing "hero worship" and "generic ancestor worship" here.

Tribal and even clan founders and other guardian beings receive worship through a "cult", as part of all the worship activities.

If you look at "Arcane Lore: Heroquests and Heroquesting", you will find among the list of examples of worshipped entities Kitor, Colymar (IIRC) and Varmand. The text around this seems to date from the RuneQuest 3 era wrt. requirements for spirit and hero cults.

I'm not sure that there is much of a chance to worship say King Ortossi of the Colymar for much of a magical bonus unless you manage to summon him and put him in a guardian position where he can participate in the worship activities (say as warband guardian).

One observation about the worshipped (dead) heroes: the object of the worship is not so much the actual person that breathed and shat, but the achievement of this person - the feat(s). (Wasn't the difference in magic from the systems that "feats are what you are"?)

There also seems to be place for living heroes receiving worship - IIRC Hofstaring Treeleaper managed to get sufficient support from the Culbrea tribe to make the Treeleaping feat available.

> My understanding of the cycle of birth and death is that the surface world
> and underworld are both mixed worlds, and that all mortals are mixed
> beings.
> Dead souls go to the udnerworld and lose their personal identity over 7
> days, when they are judged and go to the part of the underworld reserved
> for them ( if they were good girls or boys).

I read this (for Heortlings, at least male ones) as "their breaths, formerly entwined, each go their separate ways."

> This implies that such ancestors cannot be worshiped as individuals
> because they lose their individuality.

In the Hofstaring example above, who is the object of worship? Is it that cranky old warrior sitting in the hall or gallivanting around, or is it the idealized leader/warrior function that is associated with that bag of tempers and desires?

> (As an asside I think what this means is that
> don't just forget their individuality, they actualy have no individuality,
> but that's getting even more technical). They can only be contacted as
> part of the generic host of ancestors, and are eventualy reincarnated.

I seem to recall a passage in Thunder Rebels that on Ancestor Day certain ancestors may receive individual recognition.

> But what happens to heroes who become immortal? My theory is that they do
> this by purifying themselves so that they are nolonger mixed beings. They
> are pure spirits, theist souls or essences and that's why they are
immortal.
> They are now realy denizens of the appropriate otherworld, and are
> nolonger bound by the cycle of birth and death. Hence they are
immortals. In
> other worlds mixed being and mortal are the same thing. An excellent
example
> would be Theist saints, who we know work like this as they have ther own
> Nodes on the Essence plane.

Depends on where these immortal heroes go. The way I understand e.g. Arkat's Otherworld abode Statham Well it is a mixed place, a heroplane existance. But then Arkat is a special calibre of immortal hero.

Less controversial ones might be Hendrik or Harmast, who in some likelihood have a presence in the Storm Village. Not necessarily the only presence, but one of them.

> However does this apply to specific ancestors contacted through ancestor
> worship? Is it actually possible for ancestors who are still part of the
> cycle of birth and death to maintain individuality somehow? What happens
> if they are reincarnated? This possibility seems very problematic, and I
> don't see how it could work.

I suppose as long as they receive individual memorisation on Ancestor Day, they are not available for reincarnation. As long as they are "ancestors" that matter to the living as individuals, they don't return to the cycle but function as part of the ancestor host.

More interestingly, when a Heortling ancestor is reborn, is it to the same clan (or descendants thereof), or could it be the enemy clan instead? Or does reincarnation make such considerations irrelevant?

Donald Oddy (replying to the same paragraph)
> I don't think it does. I'd work on the basis that the only ancestors
> you can contact are those who have in some way become immortal. It
> may well be easier for animists to become immortal spirits than it
> is for theists and monotheists.

But then a lowly hero cult entity may sink back into the faceless mass if its meagre cult disbands, right? How much of a cult is needed for this "individual" immortality?

> The other possibility is that with cults like Daka Fal allows
> contact with a specific ancestor in the time between death and
> rebirth.

We're talking animism here, which should be different from Heortling daimon ancestors. And I strongly doubt that the reincarnation cycles for Heortlings, Dara Happans and Teshnans (where theistic) have much in common.

> One consequence of this would be to delay the ancestor
> being reborn. I suppose this could be how animists become
> immortal spirits - their descendants call on them so frequently
> that they get stuck in the spirit world. They are still going
> to lose most of their individuality as they become known for
> the magic they provide rather than their whole personality.

That isn't too different from theist "remembered feats". Ancestors are remembered for their achievements (including "father of" or "mother of") rather than for their likeability or loveability. Someone's little sister who died of hunger a few years ago will linger among the ancestors as long as those who had a personal relation with her remember this relation, but may return to rebirth rather soon.

As someone (Jane?) said during the rules list relation discussion, even a relation to a dead person still may be used as a suitable ability for augmentation. Received on Thu 15 Feb 2007 - 15:27:13 EET