[Glorantha]Re: Jaldon, Tada, Waha, etc.

From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:54:24 -0800 (PST)


> What I mean is that even if Waha Khans know
> something (in mythic terms), that does not
> mean it is the only explanation possibile.

No, but you asked about Praxian myths. In Praxian myths, Waha is not an incarnation of Tada and the khans know the difference.

> > I am certain. Tada is not an ancestor of the
> > Praxian nomads. He's someone else's ancestor.
> And why not both things? Genert is dead, but Tada
> is not. So, if his mythic path is still known,
> Tada "is" a sort of resident Praxian Spirit,
> while Genert is not.

Tada is not an ancestor of the Praxian nomads. They know their ancestors very well. Those who can prove that Waha is an ancestor can become khans.

Tada manifests at the sleeping city and the tumulus, especially if you have his Grisley Parts. In that sense, he is a Praxian place spirit available to anyone who has the right ceremonies.

> What's the difference between WB agenda and Jaldon
> agenda and Waha agenda (for that matter?)? None.

The White Bull spirit's agenda is much deeper than Jaldon's. Only the first part of it co-incides with Jaldon's.

Jaldon is a specific anti-Outlander incarnation of Waha, so his agenda is a subset of Waha's.

> Only methods changes:
> Tada uses his magic, Waha uses his and Jaldon uses
> both and a bit more.

Eiritha uses magic and has a pro-nomad agenda; so does Waha. Ergo, they are the same spirit. Huh?

> Argrath is a willing tool, because as a Heortling he
> wants to cast out the Lunar outlanders first.

Agreed, except the characterization as a Heortling.

> > I don't think Jaldon is half Oasis People. He's
> > certainly no Oasis People hero. Do you have a
> > source for this?
> No, but maybe Daniel has a source that denies this
> possibility.

He is a crazed nomad dental mystic. So is Jaldon.

> Yet Storm Bull (as an ancestor) is defiant.

To most Praxians, he is a spirit. Only those Storm Bull worshippers who go to the Eternal Battle know that the Great Bull is in every realm. But they would expect no different.

> What if Jaldon (the first Jaldon in Pavis
> period) were a Praxian quester who incarnated
> (or was possessed by) a proto-Jaldon shaman
> spirit who knew the secret relationship between
> Waha and Tada (similar to Wilbur Smith's secret
> correlation between middle kingdom egypt last
> dinasty and new kingdom egypt first dinasty)?
> This Proto-Jaldon Shaman Spirit (born before Dawn)
> could well be imagined as an animal (Jaldon's
> steed) or as a Giant-shaman (housed by Jaldon's
> teeth) that historical Jaldon met near the
> Plateau of Statues (a place I incidentally
> imagine similar to Abu-Simbel or Fayum but
> you are not obliged to do the same;)).

I see Jaldon as having re-enacted some of Waha's greatest quests -- the discovery of riding is one that gains him his steed, Home. His time on the plateau is part of his heroquesting. His hatred of Outlanders is probably what led him to his quests, rather than the other way around.


> Argrath White Bull appears pretty much where
> Jaldon leads the Barbarian Horde (i.e. the Pol
> Joni clans plus allies) into Dragon Pass in the
> boardgame, which has led to speculations that he
> unites being a descendant of Jaldon/Waha
> (through paternal descent) and Sartar (through
> his mother), being the bastard son of a Khan
> and a Sartarite woman captured as slave.

I agree with this, except that I don't think you have to be a descendant of Jaldon or Waha to incarnate Jaldon. This is a little heretical. I think it is part of his magic, including how he is provably "different" from Waha for purposes of evading the peace treaty with Pavis.

> Actually, the sacking of Pavis (for the first
> time since the Dragonewts' Dream) is mythically
> significant. The Praxians are back in the troll-
> held rubble, everything goes again.

It is certainly significant that they sack Pavis. One would mention it from the Praxians' viewpoint. But it would not take the central point that it takes in Orlanthi or Pavisite terms. If Pavis was really central to the nomads, they would have either occupied it like other oases or killed everyone. From the nomads' point of view, chasing the lunars out of the holy land is more important. Pavis is not terribly significant in the nomads' sacred geography. However, it is a critical crossing point over the River of Cradles, so they have to sack it to make sure it is not a future problem. (And because it is there.)

> It is possible that AW goes on to awaken Jaldon
> on the Sartarite border.

I agree with this.

> It is as possible that he reveals himself to
> be Jaldon reincarnated (however, yet without
> his lanky steed "home").

This may be. I'd disagree with my most usual sense of "reincarnated"--I don't think AW was born with Jaldon's spirit. I think he learned the secret of incarnating Jaldon after he was born.

It could still make sense that the Jaldon counter in DP is actually AW. If so, we have to postulate that something happens between the Sack of Pavis and the DP scenarios that causes all of AW's followers to follow that other Argrath (the DP Argrath counter) and for AW to pick up a bunch of Bastard Pol-Joni as followers. Perhaps AW's recruitment of Bastards turns off the nomads, but you'd think they would just go home.

The fact that several counters of clearly Praxian sacred societies are part of the Sartar army (rather than the barbarian horde) is circumstantial evidence that the DP Argrath counter is Argrath Whitebull (which I don't otherwise believe, but what's the fun if the evidence does not contradict?).

Chris Lemens

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--__--__-- Received on Tue 27 Jan 2004 - 10:47:07 EET

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