Re: [Glorantha]Kralori Summerland Practice

From: Alex Ferguson <>
Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 00:07:41 +0100

On Sat, May 01, 2004 at 11:40:57PM +0900, TERRA INCOGNITA wrote:
> No matter how you want to say this or that, I think there isn't enough
> information and official set for Kralorela, except we can find some bits in
> Glorantha: Introduction to HW, and it doesn't tell enough about local colors

> and powers of Kralorela.

Of course not. Have I in any sense implied there is? Hence what I thought was fairly liberal use of "IMO" and other such qualifiers.

> I love both tibetan tantrism and ancient chinese
> (and mongolian) history (because Japan holds fertile tradition of buddhism
> and Chinese history) I don't think something bad to share it with someone
> like you. Though you might not like it.

Sorry, I don't follow that; was that a subliminal appeal to authority?

> And about Kralori way with Summerland Heaven, IIRC, all "good" Kralori go
> there no matter what they believe, that is similar to Solace of the Body for
> Malkioni, and I think among Kralori, concept of "goodness" is the very
> subject of long debate who Dragon Emperors choose and not.

I think this comparison is misleading in (at least) one crucially different respect. The point of Solace _is_ Solace; the point of the Summer Land Heaven is not simply being in the SLH, but to achieve some further cosmic and/or personal development distinct from the SLH itself, but which the SLH makes (much more) possible. (i.e. once there, to further one's draconic/mystical/whateverly progress.)

I'm sure there are various nuances about how ones gets to the SLH, but I don't think it's at all difficult, and nor is it in any way ascetic. (In so far as such a fate is verifiable; at least I think that's the belief.) I strongly suspect that the biggests precepts are obedience to and reverence of the (current) Emperor. Nor is getting to the SLH a "Mystic goal" -- it's if anything a "mystic means", and that in a pretty weak sense.

> In Glorantha, there is DRAGON MAGIC, it is different from any Three
> Otherworld Magics, (Perhaps now Greg wants to label it to Middle World
> Innate Magic or Natural Magic...) But I think it doesn't explain enough
> about why dragonewt way is so strange and how Kralori can mix it with their
> "mystical" way (or so they believe.) And Dragons get no alienworld
> penalty.....

This is just shoving terminology around; you don't want to assume the Kralori way is some "mystical" system, distinct from the Three Otherworlds and Systems, but it's fine to assume it's "Dragon Magic"... which is distinct from the other three? Sorry, sounds like six and half a dozen to me. If you're happy with my suggestions aside from this terminology, feel free to make such a substitution throughout.  

> (They are long sworn enemies throughout history) and Tantrists believe they
> want to help Godunya to achieve liberation and draw gaudy mandalas around
> the court, and eunuchs help them for their hidden idea.... and hinder the
> influence of snobbish, haughty mandarins. Mandarins of course want to throw
> both of them off and recover old good days.

Why 'gaudy'? You seem very keen to take my rather lightweight comparison to Vajrayana (which would be pretty much that we have some concept analogous to each of mantras, mandalas and chakras, and some sort of philosophy that makes sense of having them) and strengthen it to stress its incompatibility with some equally strong analogue to Confucianism. I think you're either making rather too much of these comparisons, or indulging in a touch of the straw men here.  

> As I said, Greg might change his mind again, so still Mahayana might be
> failed mysticism and thus Kralori "theistic" (Mark Galeotti said) religion
> is "failed-properly" channelled to Draconic Realm.

I'm trying to articulate what I think is "correct", not trying to "Greg-proof" anything. Good luck with the latter if that's your strategy.


--__--__-- Received on Tue 04 May 2004 - 06:24:32 EEST

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0 : Sun 04 Feb 2007 - 19:57:48 EET