[Glorantha]Sheng Seleris and Kralorela

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z_at_mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 00:31:40 +0900

My discussion with Alex Ferguson about Unity and Diversity of Kralorela can be found at here:
http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~BLUEMAGI/UnityandDiversityKralorela-e.htm With much RW parallels I think it is appropriate (though you might not agree with me).

> > > I agree that the Pentans are not evil but it does not follow that
Sheng
> > > Seleris is not evil.
> >
> >What's the definition of Evil? Everything is under relative evaluation if
> >you don't have absolute criteria.

I don't think Martin Laurie [Main worker for current Pentan steppe and some good [my POV] Sheng story with Sheng's spiritual struggle] would agree with you, though I don't have access to GTA proper archive. Maybe Greg might side with you, I worry about it.

>
> I generally think of Sheng as evil in the same way that the Kingdom of
> War is evil.

I can't agree with your idea just for my preference and reverence to Great History of Mongol.

IMG KoW is something mechanical, cruel War Machine without any heroes. Evil minions of Glorantha like broos reject love as that Mordor, orcs hate each other and obey rule for they fear masters. Followers of Arkat, Sheng and Harrek love their master even if with awe and fear. Of course I don't think you agree with such romantic POV.

>
> > > I do not believe Godunya can pass on through Utuma. He has already
done
> > > so when Sheng Seleris came and negated that by his return.

Greg didn't mention anything about Godunya's return to Kralorela in Glorantha Con #4 Compendium IIRC.

> Now he
> > lingers in
> > > a senile state waiting for a natural end.

Then how modern kralori can reach Summerland Heaven? I think this might mean Kralori populace is deceived by Godunya.

> >
> >This is new theory, certainly.
>
> Actually it was in the original glorantha: intro drafts.

I am not sure [as you?] why some of your idea was negated by Greg, simply for space restriction, or for rejected?

> Archexarch of War

[Snip]

I want to read it before I wrote about Lur Nop for Zin Letters #2...:-( Though I hesitate to face your use of term "utuma" simply means commiting suicide.... Great Quotation, thanks.

> A statue of
> Sheng Seleris was blessed and thrown beneath the waters to
> indicate that no
> longer would he be propitiated. The Archexarch of War fumed
> throughout the
> funeral and afterwards ordered several regiments to commit utuma
> for insufficient
> discipline.

I am not sure why you could link Sheng with ShangHsa, as far as I read old Genertela Box, it didn't mention anything about such in the "funeral" box. (Of course, story of Sheng was induced by Greg long after that.) Do you assume pacifist Yao Fune advocate the Funeral....? And I am not sure Kralori xenophobia reaches such level even in Magical World. (Maybe Vormaino reaches such level....)

>
> All Kralorela is waiting for a sign to see whether the funeral
has
> succeeded or failed.
> The Kingdom of Ignorance is arming and this worries many. The
> Archexarch of War
> has been threatened with an invitation to commit utuma if he
dares
> to violate the
> spirit of the funeral and march against Ignorance.

> >Even in your Glorantha, I assume some (many?) people of Kralorela hate
> >exarchs who fled to North and enjoyed good life by defeating mere
trollkins
> >while they suffered under the Yoke of ShangHsa and failed revolts of
> >Heseroon Marn. Exarchs might have brought back Tantric Methods to
mainland
> >after Godunya overthrew ShangHsa, but some people (didn't escape from
there)
> >don't admit it is traditional way of Kralorela.
>
> That's an interesting insight. That many Kralori sages practice magical
> techniques developed during their sojourn in the New Kingdom of Wisdom
> that are viewed as corrupt and ignorant by the mainstream.
>
> >I still think there is some similarity to enigmatic Zolathi = Saka Morn
sect
> >and Kralori tantrism, but don't have strong opinion on it, except RW
example
> >that relationship between tibetan Sakya sect and Mongolian Empire.
>
> Hmm. So Saka Morn could be an Ignorant practice that was purified
> during the New Kingdom of Wisdom? So that when Sheng Seleris
> studies it, he sees the evil possibilities latent in these teachings and
> succumbs?
>

Though I want your approval zealously, I also like own image of RW mongol, tibet and china. Sheng is not evil IMG though Greg will not agree with me.

> > > Moreover I think here you are trying to conflate the Mandala (Circle
of
> > > Infinite Dragons) and the I Ching. I don't think they are the same
> > > thing - one's to do with draconism and the other is a product of
> > cosmological
> > > evolution (hinted at the Myth of the Three against One).
>
> >Your idea of Three against One is another new input. Then you think Three
> >against One (Vithelan foreign idea) is a sort of I-ching. Mandala (In RW,
> >Tantric) is more indegeneous....Again, ignoring RW source.
>
> I should point out that I think the Mandala is a representation of the
> ancient Wheel of Life that was used by Shavaya and others. Hence it
> would be found not only in Kralorela but Teshnos (where they have
> dwarf made prayer wheels), Vormain and perhaps Ignorance. Daruda
> developed a draconic version of the Mandala.

>
Please see my note on the discussion with Alex, about definition of term of "Mandala". It is not Glorantha official term IIRC and Greg didn't use it formerly. We can't discuss anything about it without clear definition.

> As for the sorcerous I-Ching, it's as old as Vithela and might have
> been systemized in some prehistoric era.

At least, we share the impression logic of I-Ching is sorcerous for its own nature....Though it also lacks clear definition in Joerg's terminology database.

TI

--__--__-- Received on Wed 26 May 2004 - 07:00:38 EEST

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