Re: [Glorantha] Heortling initiation

From: Jennifer Geard <>
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:53:18 +1200

Hi All,

This is mostly my responses to Jane.

> > > >Initiation to adulthood at age 14.
> > >
> > > Bit late for a girl.
> >
> > It's probably late according the theory in Thunder
> > Rebels. It's early
> > according to the description of initiation in King
> > of Sartar, which was
> > the state-of-play when this story began.
> This timeline comes from OiD, so I suspect the TR
> description is the one we're working to.

Then as you say, this conversation could get biological really quickly.=20 I've done a very quick scan of the literature on historical trends in=20 age of menarche, and I think in our Glorantha we'll go with 12-14.

> > This is a special case, but it's where the lack of
> > apparent Ernaldan
> > initiation becomes a concern. Is the idea of having
> > to go through
> > Ernalda to reach Vinga a later addition to the
> > corpus?
> Sorry, you've lost me. Later than what?

Later than this initiation story. How much weight should we place on the=20 dates and order of publication of materials involving characters who've=20 built up histories for many years?=20

Did you have to be an Ernaldan initiate in order to become a permanent=20 Vingan before Storm Tribe? Storm Tribe p.173, Vingan membership=20 requirements: "Any Heortling woman who has undergone Ernaldan=20 initiation ... may join Vinga as a permanent member after convincing=20 three sponsors ... of her sincerity and fitness." Or should I read this=20 as "any Heortling woman who's undergone Ernaldan initiation may try for=20 Vinga, and so may some Heortling woman who haven't"?=20

Normally I'd expect that if she was planning to be a career Vingan she'd=20 have to spend a year studying Ernalda, followed by an Ernaldan=20 initiation. Then she'd get to initiate to Vinga.

If, instead, she turned to Vinga as a Red Woman -- and I don't have the=20 sources to hand, but I think she avenged a massacre of her kin=20 somewhere in there -- she mightn't need to reach Vinga through Ernalda.=20 In that case, though, it strikes me as a bit strange that she'd first=20 spend a year studying Vinga.

> Rigsdal was, AFAIK, invented for HW, there is only one
> version of the write-up, and he can indeed be a
> stand-alone god (though this is weird!). Her stats for
> 1621 show only one Affinity from her Rigsdal
> membership, though, which sounds a bit odd if he's
> stand-alone in this case? I don't have the books with
> me in work, though.

Another possibility is that she took Rigsdal as a subcult of Orlanth=20
Allfather, as described in the Rigsdal write-up in Storm Tribe p.231=20
(which is not where I would have expected to find it!). In that case=20
she's "just" collecting a range of Vingan subcults.

[Ah, right, I've checked my mail again and found that Donald's just=20 mentioned this.]

> > If this is Vanganth as a subcult of Orlanth ...
> > She's a Vingan already, and Vinga is the path to
> > Orlanth for women, so
> > she's effectively picking up another Vingan subcult.
> That was my thought. Later she swaps to Vinga Dar -
> it's just a case of *which* version of Vinga she picks
> to start with, perhaps?

Is that a true swap, or is she adding Dar to her portfolio of=20 Vingan-Orlanthi subcults?

Does she become a devotee at any stage? If Rigsdal can be an Orlanthi=20 subcult, it begins to sound like there's a case for all her magic=20 coming from a single deity (Orlanth as mediated by Vinga).

So we might have:

Vinga - generic, either spearwoman or Red Woman Vinga Vanganth
Vinga Rigsdal
Vinga Dar

> > Um, maybe not as much as a few typical case studies
> > would help. :-)
> Oh, agreed. I wish there were some. Later books,
> perhaps, or have I missed some? I'd expect this sort
> of backstory to be a standard part of character
> generation, myself, are there examples in there that
> I've missed?

It's character backstories that got me started. I'm re-working key parts=20 of said backstories as my ideas about initiation change. It's making=20 for interesting times. <wry grin>


--__--__-- Received on Thu 27 May 2004 - 00:02:32 EEST

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