RE: [Glorantha] Heortling initiation

From: Jane Williams <>
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:07:25 +0100

> > > This is a special case, but it's where the lack of
> > > apparent Ernaldan
> > > initiation becomes a concern. Is the idea of having
> > > to go through
> > > Ernalda to reach Vinga a later addition to the
> > > corpus?
> >
> > Sorry, you've lost me. Later than what?
> Later than this initiation story.

This initiation story is from OiD. I'm carefully avoiding any earlier references, as we *know* How the Universe Works altered when ST came out. Making existing campaigns very complicated, but that's another story...

> How much weight should we place on the
> dates and order of publication of materials involving
> characters who've built up histories for many years?

In this case, her timeline, especially the initiation history, has been *altered* from what went before, mainly (well, partly) so as to fit in with the New Way of initiation and the new gods available in HW/HQ. Believe me, as the writer of the previous published time-line, I know!

> Did you have to be an Ernaldan initiate in order to become a
> permanent Vingan before Storm Tribe?

There was no *official* full write-up of Vinga prior to Storm Tribe (a few notes in the HW book, as I recall). The nearest to GAG was probably my RQ3 version, which was written when we were just starting to catch on to the concept of pantheon initiation. I seem to remember suggesting that since all women initiated to Ernalda to become adult (a new and unofficial idea at the time!), it would be normal for Vingans to have previously been Ernaldans. But the whole Orlanthi adulthood model has changed so much since then, and was in such a state of flux when that was written, than it can be ignored.

Storm Tribe p.173, Vingan membership
> requirements: "Any Heortling woman who has undergone Ernaldan
> initiation ... may join Vinga as a permanent member after convincing
> three sponsors ... of her sincerity and fitness." Or should I
> read this
> as "any Heortling woman who's undergone Ernaldan initiation
> may try for Vinga, and so may some Heortling woman who haven't"?

If you can define what a Heortling woman who hasn't *is* (either not Heortling, or not a woman, I'd say) then maybe.

Even Heortling Humakti or Tricksters would, I would have thought, have undergone Ernaldan initiation, though dropped it later.

> Normally I'd expect that if she was planning to be a career
> Vingan she'd
> have to spend a year studying Ernalda, followed by an Ernaldan
> initiation.

This makes her an adult. So yes.

> Then she'd get to initiate to Vinga.

After a year studying Vinga, surely? (This being for the career-path type)

> If, instead, she turned to Vinga as a Red Woman -- and I
> don't have the
> sources to hand, but I think she avenged a massacre of her kin
> somewhere in there -- she mightn't need to reach Vinga
> through Ernalda.

Let me check... Yes, the "temporary" sub-cult, normally joined for vengeance purposes. If she *isn't* an Ernaldan at the time she decides Red Woman is the way to go, then why not? What is she?

> In that case, though, it strikes me as a bit strange that she'd first
> spend a year studying Vinga.

For this temporary setup, I don't think she does. She joins, then gets armed and trained. It's one of those special cases.

> > That was my thought. Later she swaps to Vinga Dar -
> > it's just a case of *which* version of Vinga she picks
> > to start with, perhaps?
> Is that a true swap, or is she adding Dar to her portfolio of
> Vingan-Orlanthi subcults?

"Leaves worship of Vanganth behind for worship of Dar the Leader". And her 1621 stats have no Vanganth references, and no ability to fly.

> Does she become a devotee at any stage?

Certainly not by 1621. And she's a bit short of time for that kind of thing, so my guess is not any time soon, if at all. As a general rule, leaders aren't devotees.

> If Rigsdal can be an Orlanthi
> subcult, it begins to sound like there's a case for all her magic
> coming from a single deity (Orlanth as mediated by Vinga).

I'd say so, yes.

Add adulthood/Ernalda at the start.
> Vinga - generic, either spearwoman or Red Woman
No, I'd say direct to Vinga Vanganth.

> Vinga Vanganth
> Vinga Rigsdal
> Vinga Dar
Swapping out Vanganth at this point.

> It's character backstories that got me started.
> I'm re-working key parts
> of said backstories as my ideas about initiation change. It's making
> for interesting times. <wry grin>

Good fun, isn't it? And if you're running an Devotee, figuring out how they got there can be *very* interesting.

--__--__-- Received on Thu 27 May 2004 - 06:57:09 EEST

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