[Glorantha]Re: Glorantha digest, Vol 10 #164 - Moon, Heortland, Common Magic

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:27:01 +0200 (CEST)

Subject: Glowline

Peter Metcalfe:
>>>As Nick points out, Common sense is a useful tonic.

>>Tonics can be bland and stagnant if left open for too long...

>When the alternative is something silly (namely the moon zooming
>in the heavens when crossing the glowline) then I stick with common

The Glowline is a magical boundary, upon crossing it you experience a different reality.

I wonder what the celestial side-effects of entering Alkoth are...

>>It isn't that bad unless you take care to watch the change in the moon's

>A radical change in the moon's position once one crosses the glowline
>"isn't that bad"? I strongly disagree.

Disagree as much as you like - YGWV.

>>>>Oh, and a change of phase effect, too. Which one exactly will be told
>>>>in ILH2.

>>>What change of phase?

>>From whichever phase you had before entering to the effect of the half
>>moons if you're an ordinary Lunar, or to the effects of the Full Moon if
>>you are specially devoted (or was it "know the secret"?).

>That's not a change of phase. We are talking about the physical
>appearances of the moon. It does not become always half (or
>always full if you know the secret) inside the Glowline.

That's why I carefully wrote "change of phase _effect_". The appearance next to the Crater will necessarily be different from say the Sweet Sea, whether you use Euklidean optics or just accept Greg's model.

>The Glowline is stated to be
>a giant web in which Yara Aranis scuttles over. Although the raison
>d'etre isn't spelled out there, Yara Aranis devouring sacrifices to give
>birth to the invisible Reaching Moon is parallel to Arachne Solara
>devouring the Devil to give birth to Time.

This is very fine for explaining the expansion of the original Silver Shadow.

>>IMO the glowline as reaching out from the Good Shore temple (and later
>>additions) since the 3rd Wane only extends the Silver Shadow, a circular
>>Satrapy centered upon the Crater named after a special celestial effect.

>The Silver Shadow Sultannate was in existence before Sheng Seleris
>and the Good Shore Temple is markedly off centre of the Sultannate's
>borders. Hence I doubt that the Glowline is responsible for the Silver

My reasoning is that the Silver Shadow is the original border of the "under the full/half moon" effect, and that Yara Aranis took it from there across the empire, bulging it out around her temples.

>But that said, what was your raison d'etre for the Glowline?

Basically a topological identity of the Crown Mountains rim on the moon and the rim of the Crater. The Empire within the Glowline acts "as if on the surface of the moon".

Kids and common magic

>>>The magical practical jokes the kids can play are hence ordinary
>>>practical jokes which the Orlanthi have no problems with.
>>No troubles beyond the usual anger about kid-induced weregeld or
>>sacrifice expenses, then.

>What weregild and sacrifice induced expenses would these be?

Ever played King of Dragon Pass? That kid which tossed dung at the temple? Expensive in atonement... Humiliating the neighbors' Elmal Temple by the same method? Bad diplomacy.

>If the Orlanthi permit their kids to use weapons than the kids
>should be allowed common magic, no?

Under some control of adults, yes.

>>Which is not what I advocated, either. I said kids should be banned from
>>making their own Common Magic charms etc., to avoid events similar to the
>>"Feet" trollkin with the Earth Axe in Munchrooms, i.e. the magical item
>>taking over an unprepared wielder.

>But common magic can't do that and the Feet dominates its trollkin
>wielder through force of personality rather than any magical effect.

This would be good on the rules digest then: when creating common magic animism charms, what are the chances of attracting something too big to be controlled? And how do I do this?

>>>More to the point, common magic is not a sharp weapon.

>>Common magic derived from e.g. the Stream is anything but a blunt weapon.
>>Lesser embodied otherworld entities like Firshala and their magical gifts
>>can be sharp weapons.

>Firshala is not an embodied otherworld entity but a goddess entrapped in
>the material world. Only when she is released will she provide magic and
>as an otherworld being, she doesn't provide common magic.

I don't quite see how Firshala differs from Imarja, but what about the Stream?

>>Which does not require any adult intervention if they happen to meet an
>>embodied spirit helping them through for its own purposes.

>So for practically all intents and purposes, kids do require adult
>intervention to learn animist magic.

If you call such spirits adults, yes.

>>>There's nothing dangerous about talking to natural entities. It's
>>>like talking to pillars of your community for useful stuff.

>>Provided these entities are benevolent ones, or at least sufficiently
>>propitiated ones. Herdboys and Oreads is an entirely different story.

>An Oread isn't benevolent?

In her role as seductress, as benevolent to the society as the Uleria temple for married men. Can be benevolent, needn't be. Might be described as "the demon"...

To use the common sense Peter claims as his own: The Orlanthi won't let their kids mess with entities outside of their control. Flesh Man charms probably can be given to kids "on a mission", and will be asked back.


>>The Andrinic sheriffs are appointees by the king,


They are elected by the clan? This would have been an interesting fact to publish.

>>chosen from a body of specially instructed people

>They are not "specially instructed" any more than any religious
>or political personality in glorantha is.

They are not full Larnsti, but receive the limited Larnsti teachings introduced by Andrin. Let's be constructive: Who gives these teachings? If the acting Sheriff trains his successors, where did the original training come from?

>>(according to my understanding of some debate
>>on the Whitewall list with Peter: members of a special cult or heroband
>>which was spawned off Hendreik's Larnsti but which aren't full Larnsti,
>>instituted by Andrin, and overseen by his successors).

>What I was arguing against there was a particularly rigid interpretation
>of the Larnsti based on the belief that Broyan's character sheet was
>scriptually inerrant. I had no desire to debate the import of Larnsti
>and Sheriffs in Heortland on that list because that list is about
>Whitewall not Pharaonic Heortland.

Still it's an issue about Volsaxi tribal politics, which are very much about Whitewall.

>Hence basing arguments about what Sheriffs
>and Larnsti get up to based on hermeneutical analysis of what I said
>on that list aren't worth very much.

Or anywhere else (like in the Glorantha Intro), it seems.

Peter doesn't give a damn...:
>What I am concerned with is your attempt, yet again, to claim
>as fact that the people of Pharaonic Heortland are oppressed.

That's what the non-Pharaonic people say. That's why they went away to be eaten by trolls, dragonewts, or be enslaved by Horsespawn.

Freedom by command is a difficult concept. Similar to enforced democracy.

>>Peter said they may come from the fold of the clan (implying that every
>>Andrinic clan has a small pool of Larnsti-schooled people).

>What I was arguing against here was your assertion that the Sherrifs
>always come from outside the clan and are oppressors.

Let's split this: are you arguing against the assumption that they come from outside the clan? How exactly did this start?

I know you argue against them being oppressors. Of course they don't tolerate any worship which would threaten their position, but that needn't be oppression, just intra-clan politics. As long as you are the one defending the position...

>>The sheriffs supplant the chieftains in the Dar rites (or whichever other
>>chieftain cult the clan traditionally used), and would be the person the
>>(clan? shire?) wyter talks to. This puts some strain on the "follow
>>chosen leaders" principle so loved by the Heortlings.

>So the people in Apple Lane have great difficulties with their sheriff?
>Doesn't look that way to me.

They are a crazy, clanless bunch. I don't know why they should be Andrinic, but they might be.

>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Apart from plain text components...

Lunar Matters

Pointless "ain't so"s deleted.

>>Uleria is not a power of the Earth

>Which is news to the Elves.

Maybe. Larnste, Acos, Harana Ilor, Tylenea, Orenoar, Ratslaff and Kargan Tor are not a power of the Earth either. They are the Powers which are distinct in lacking elemental affiliations but being applicable to any.

Besides, the White Elves had the power of Uleria but none of Earth, either. Just because those elves you choose to bring up are earth-bound doesn't make the deity so. Growth and Fertility were not limited to Earth.

>>>>The red earth of Naveria sought to hinder the rise of the Red Moon,
>>>>and still seeks to draw it down.

>>>They did?

Grammar check: I said "the red earth of Naveria", and Peter asks "They did?"

I said nothing about the people.

>>>When the Naverians were conquered by the Dara
>>>Happans in mythic times, their leader was the Lord of Seven
>>>(GRAY p28) and also possibly the Protector Among Seven
>>>(Entekosiad p34). What is the seven but a recognition of
>>>Lunar Power?

>>The seven High Gods of Pelanda included Rashoran(a), but not Natha.

>The Pelandans are not Naverians and the going-ons at Mount
>Jernotius is evidence that Natha was accepted by them.

Forced upon them as their equal, and the old gods objected for quite a while.

A shrewd move, challenging Orlanth at Castle Blue where he had little native support to draw upon, with the Old Gods already beaten once.

>Given that the Pelandans worship Daxadarius (who was also involved
>at the Jernotian going ons) to this day,

The guy who introduced Natha...

>I find it hard to believe
>that the conflict is evidence that the Naverians sought to hinder
>the rise of the Red Moon and still seek to draw it down.

I think we can safely assume that where the Crater is now there were farmsteads and villages before 1247. I think we can as safely assume that these people would have objected to their homes being eradicated, unless they were added to the population on the moon or gently shoved aside (and even so they might have objected).

But even so, I didn't say the people tried to pull down the moon, I said the earth tried. And formed the Crater.

As to the use of Chaos against Chaos, this usually comes out of an escalation of desperation. Like in the Gbaji Wars.

--__--__-- Received on Mon 21 Jun 2004 - 18:03:44 EEST

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