[Glorantha]Mostly Karse

From: Light Castle <light_castle_at_sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:07:33 -0400

On 29 Sep 2004 at 6:56, glorantha-request_at_rpglist.org wrote:


Wives of Pelaskos

> Seems to me that Pelaskos has many wives in many ports. :)

I think that is probably very true. But then that seems to be a recurring godly motif.


> Snipping most of that, and hoping they get their Wiki soon... (I might
> set one up for them in self-defence)

Thanks for the offer, btw.  

> That's in Barbarian Adventures. Which seems to be very hard to get hold
> of - I keep recommending it to people, but in vain. Reprint time?

Utterly unavailable anywhere I've looked. I do have some hints from TR, and there's an Elmal ring in MoLaD, so I can reverse engineer somewhat. But it's a bit irritating. :(  

<Swashbuckling Humakti>

I could see Karse importing them from Nochet. It's a prestige thing. Probably not a lot, though. In fact, given its location, I could see Karse having both the typical Orlanthi ones and the Nochet style, creating a bit of rivarly.


> One copy of Barbarian Adventure was available in my game shop last time I
> went there.
> It's somewhere in France but if someone you know is interested I either sell
> it with the extra shipping cost only or in exchange for one Orlanth Is Dead
> that I cannot manage to find.
> I can confirm or not the buying before end of week.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass for now.

Joerg (Wives of Pelaskos)

> More a founding goddess. Ivarne, Heort's wife, doesn't seem to have had an
> impact on Heortling women's everyday chores. Neither is getting frozen a
> common marriage preparation among the Heortlings...

An excellent point. We don't need that marriage to provide those aspects.

> > Golod? I've never heard of Golod.
> He's the Father of Fish from the Prosopaedia
> http://www.glorantha.com/library/prosopaedia/g.html#golod
> and also
> http://www.glorantha.com/library/prosopaedia/t.html#tholaina
> One might argue that Oskippos is a Heortling name for Golod, but I'm open
> for other suggestions.

That's not an insane argument. It would put something of a different spin on the Oskippos story, and certainly is a possibility. Oskippos as an avenger/warrior is also intriguing.

> Keeping some of the gifts of control over sea creatures she received from
> her husband, making a subcult similar to Goose Girl feasible. However,
> this might be treading on Choralinthor's mythical territory.

That's what I'm thinking. And I wouldn't want to do that since the Pelaskites seem to have survived primarily on that bay. So he shouldn't be ignored in the mythology.  

> > I have to agree with this. I saw Pelaskos as the Fisherman, but he has
> > lots of minor gods
> > and daimons helping him. (This would appear to be supported by the
> > adventure in the HQ book.)
> Which one?

The Fish Rain one. It has Oralprath as a minor god who has a couple of temples in the Holy Country, along the coast. He is described as "a great friend of the Twin Fishers, Oralprath was one of those who cast magical nets and dragged up everything that was alive or dead."  

So here's a minor god who helps with the nets, just as we speculated.

> > They aren't called Pelaskites for nothing.
> How many of them are there?

See, this I don't know. I would suspect not many.  

> I had Pelaskos rather in a Vingkot-like role. A hero rediscovering how to
> access the Pelaskos ways in the Silver Age (after the Godtime magics had
> changed and new ways had to be found, see Hantrafal) would be nice to
> know, so that we get a minor Silver Age hero for the Pelaskites.

We have proposed Karse itself as this, which might work. I do really like the Heler link, though. In fact, since this Gloranthan Q&A (http://www.glorantha.com/new/q-and- a/orlanthi.html) has Greg saying "Similarly, the Helerings survive among the Heortlings with significant populations (in the Dawn Age) in modern Esrolia and Wenelia.", does that mean the Pelaskites could be Helerings?

> <Karse the God/dess>
> Yes. Basically, you have two settings of Imperial Age ruins nearby: Old
> Karse and Lylket. While I doubt that there will be much left in terms of
> tangible treasures, there might be hidden knowledge in mural paintings or
> carvings.

Lylket didn't last very long though, did it?

> Oh no... Personally, I'd like to downplay the involvement of ducks, but I
> can just see duck lovers demanding the legions of Humakti Deathdrakes
> fighting a lost hope action against the newts.

> IIRC and IMG, the tax release for duck bills was put to rest fairly soon
> after 1615. The ducks preferred to remain in hiding nevertheless - once
> bitten, twice shy.

I like that, actually. Much easier to deal with. Of couse, there are occasional spikes of anti-duck violence, but no longer an active persecution.

> <The Sacred Marriage>
> One of several campaign lines I'd like to offer. Of course the player
> heroes will have to help her into the mysteries and through the heroquests
> as faithful companions...

If not actively competing in her wooing should there be a contest component, as suggested elsewhere.

> Exactly. Moirades has two named children - Pharandros and Estal Donge. His
> wife (not the FHQ, and possibly not the Durnsa woman who is mother of
> Estal Donge) or the wife of Pharandros is Fazzur's sister. Prince Orontes
> of Tarsh War fame most likely is only a distant relative or the second
> generation offspring of some (possibly ritual) extramarital affair of
> Phargentes (or Moirades) (likely with an unmarried mother of bastard
> blood, or something similarly unuseable for dynastic succession but still
> royal enough to keep up the stipend). That's a problem with the Illaro
> dynasty - too few children for an extended royal clan, unless you pull
> similar stunts to those legitimizing the majority of the Argraths.

What's Fazzur's lineage like. Doesn't he have a bunch of sons? (although I seem to recall many of them meeting a bad end)

> <Gift giving and the Fair>

> If it still works out with the Gifting Day rites, that would be a benefit.
> Otherwise, one of Fazzur's goals might be to get stable conditions by the
> time the fair is supposed to start, resulting in better concessions to the
> Baron than one would otherwise expect.

> > Perhaps this can't be easily messed with, so Fazzur (and whoever he
> > leaves in charge) needs to wait a year to push new people into place?
> > That gives a year of vicious political maneuvering for position. It also
> > ties in nicely with the line that the port was fully functional by "next
> > spring". Given the minimal damage, the port was functional, but it
> > wasn't until next spring that the Lunars had replaced everyone with
> > their lackeys.
> This reasoning has too much story potential to be ignored. But again,
> that's only one possible story line.

Both options (yours above) and the one I propose have lots of potential for story and for creating situations the PCs might get involved in.  

> > Let alone not a single mention of what Orlanthi city life is like.
> Now that I regard as a creative challenge and a feature rather than as a bug.

True. After all, this sprawling discussion wouldn't have started if I already had the answers. :-)  

> <Goddesses>

> > So how about Karse (female) taking a foreign lover (OR more than one)
> > in the refounding hero part? Some part of re-discovering the secrets
> > or whatever or survival.
> > The result? A founding hero, an ancient origin of the sacred marriage, and
> > a reason for a rumor about licentious Pelaskite women.
> Please expand...

Will do so on the wiki. I think I have a way to work the sacred marriage into the founding/survive the darkness part of the story, which makes it even more important.  

I think.  

> Hence the river gods as candidates. Or even sort of a former lake on the
> river mouth, which may have formed the harbour of Old Karse when Engizi
> still ran east of the Shadow Plateau.

There's a thought I hadn't considered. Besides the river running differently, even the mouth of the bay may have looked quite different.

> > Good point. We might also want to think about whether or not we're doing
> > the coastal Pelaskite culture here, or just Karse. (Admittedly, if Karse
> was
> > a major survival center, then there is a great deal of overlap.)
> Given my Karse character's backstory, I want to do the coastal Pelaskite
> culture. I feel that we are getting slightly different Pelaskites here who
> are worse as fishermen but less dependent on the Ludoch.

I think we also need to figure out how Orlanthi the Pelaskites are. After all, if you survive the Darkness on the shores of the bay, why would you consider yourself Storm Tribe? You've got the earth and the sea taking care of you.

> <Wiki Wiki Wiki!!!>
> Oh, as long as we get input from others and no red flag, I'm all for using
> the digest.

But hopefully in a more focused manner. :)  

> I don't regard Jane's offer to set up the wiki for us as such, yet... ;-)

Yet. :-)  

> > Sounds like the Pelaskites are going to need a few major tweaks on some
> > gods and goddesses here.
> Variant myths, too, if only in Prosopaedia short form.

I think the Prosopaedia short form is a good thing to aim for.  

> I'm inclined to put Pelaskos beside Vingkot and Durev, although for a
> lesser tribe. Probably closer to Harand Boardick in importance (founder of
> the Haranding Manirian Orlanthi inhabiting western Wenelia and parts of
> Esrolia).
> Another term I have seen was "Diroti Boat People", but that may have been
> a God Learner seeing people moving along in boats.

> Heortling Pelaskos worshippers wouldn't be called Pelaskites as an ethnic
> descriptor.

I'm liking the smaller tribe approach more and more. Something like Durev, but they don't get absorbed into the main culture. So actually Orlanthi in origin, but by now fairly different.

> > Hmm.. I like the more distant, propritiated version. And Oskippos as an
> > avenger of some kind. I'm not sure that the Orlanthi version of the myth
> > (with an unhappy marriage) is true from the Pelaskite view of things.
> Good point. So what is the Rightarm Islander version (if they even know
> the story), and what do the Karse Pelaskites say?
> I'm inclined to say that both Pelaskite strains have largely reunited
> during history, but there may be several differences left in completely
> local families that could explain local differences.

I also think that Karse is somewhat unique because of the presence of Karse, somehow tied to this being the location of the actual survival. Thus the rest of the coastal Pelaskites will be a bit different.

Jeff Richard

>I'm not certain that the Pelaskites are that well-defined as a separate
>culture. I think that the humans that fish on the Mirrorsea worship
>Pelaskos and associated things, regardless of whether they live in Nochet,
>Karse, the Right-Arm or Left-Arm Islands. However, I think there social
>and family arrangements are probably defined by other gods or goddesses
>(Orlanth and Ernalda in Heortland, Ernalda and her husbands in Esrolia,
>and whoever the Islanders worship).

I think this is something we need to consider. How much of a culture apart these people really are. One idea is to do what you say, which pretty much just means that if your daily life involves fishing, you add some worship of Pelaskos, and learn to deal with the sea.

But I think Joerg and I have been going on the idea that there is a more distinct, unifying culture of Pelaskites, something fairly separate from Esrolians, Heortling, Dara Happan.

>He taught folk to survive by fishing in the Mirrorsea. Stuff like war,
>marriage, kinship, rulership, etc, are probably the province of other
>gods. If I recall, there were only a couple hundred Pelaskites at the
>Dawn, so Pelaskos really didn't have to teach very much. =20

That argues for your interpretation, certainly. But the Rightarmers are certainly presented as a unique culture, quite different and called Pelaskite.


--__--__-- Received on Thu 30 Sep 2004 - 18:06:25 EEST

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