[Glorantha]Re: More Pelaskite wackiness

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:53:31 +0200 (CEST)

Jeff Richard:
> OK, let me make one thing clear - I think there is a difference between
> the folk of the Right (and for that matter Left) Arms and the coastal
> fisherfolk of Heortland and Esrolia. All may be called "Pelaskites" but
> I think the folk in Heortland are variant Heortlings (who worship
> Pelaskos) and the folk in Esrolia are variant Esrolians (who worship
> Pelaskos). The Islanders are their own folk with their own culture.

What exactly do you mean by "variant Heortlings"? The Torkani are variant Heortlings. The Esvulari are to some extent, too.

> Karse was, at the time of the Dawn, Islander Pelaskite. Maybe the
> original home of that culture, maybe not. Don't know when the Arms were
> settled. Simon clearly knows a lot more about that than I do.

Both the Rightarm and the Karse communities predate the Greater Darkness. I wonder how they survived before Engizi revitalized Choralinthor, but then they (and probably others like them) were afloat again.

> The old
> settlement was abandoned and during the EWF, a new settlement was
> founded.

This is the core of our differences or even misunderstanding.

For my version of the timeline, check:
http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=Imperial Age Karse&wikiid=7069 and
http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=New Karse&wikiid=7069

(visit the other pages as well, and leave your marks...)

> I think that new settlement was probably Heortling - with a
> Pelaskos cult.

http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=Heortling culture&wikiid=7069

agrees with that, but only after 1330.

> After the Closing, Karse ceased to be a significant
> settlement -

and was abandoned after the Creek-Stream River was redirected...

> but with the Resettlement, the Pharaoh encouraged people to
> settle once again in Karse to provide a route for goods from Sartar
> across the Mirrorsea. I suspect the settlers were folk from Heortland,
> Esrolia (Nochet) and the Islands, making Karse a cosmopolitan little
> emporium.

This is where we come together again. I have this period as the founding of New Karse, shortening the era of Heortling influences on the fisherfolk by several centuries.

> Although I'm sure it has a little fishing fleet, I think Karse gets most
> of its food from the Suchara Vale (probably by purchase from the local
> farmers).

I'm convinced that grain is also shipped in from Esrolia. New Karse is a port city, after all.

> Some of the local fishers are no doubt Islanders, others are
> from coastal Esrolia or Heortland.

I haven't yet tackled the economic specialities of the Heortling founder clans, so there is space for one group with fishing or boating interest. I didn't plan to include fisherfolk from Esrolia, though I have masons from Nochet:
http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=Immigrant groups&wikiid=7069

> They probably all worship Pelaskos
> and are probably all called "Pelaskites".

When I'm talking about Pelaskites, I mean the Islander-related culture, not the cult.

> But I don't think that they
> form a separate culture - the Islander fisherfolk are still recognizably
> Islander, the Esrolian fisherfolk are still recognizably Esrolian, and
> the Heortlander fishers (probably the biggest group) are recognizably
> Heortlings.

For Esrolia we have old publications indicating the presence of Islander culture in the country.

In Heortland, there are only "others", but I don't see Karse as a part of Heortland, more an appendix.

IMG there are Esrolian river fisherfolk using cormorants who are of Islander stock, have matriarchs worshipping Esrola as mother of the rivers and subservient men worshipping Poverri or lesser deities as husband gods.

I'm happy with Heortling riverine fishers on the Marzeel River, too. Poverri worshippers.

>> Joerg: But someone (probably not Pelaskos but a Silver Age hero)

> organized Pelaskite worship and otherworld activities after IFWW and the
> Compromise. It is possible that Heort visited Old Karse on his "dividing
> the living from the dead" tour, but I doubt he reached the Islands site
> (protected by the Mirrorsea Ludoch). It is possible that Hantrafal was
> along and showed how to worship through sacrifice. I am less convinced
> that Heort would have interfered with marriage customs etc.

> I don't think the Islanders are Heortlings. Or necessarily even
> Orlanthi - they are whatever Simon says they are.

I think they had Dureving or Helering ancestors in the Storm Age, but not exclusively. Other cultural influences (including Ludoch and Newtling) will have blotted out many Storm Tribe traits.

> But I think most Heortlending coastal fisherfolk are probably Heortlings.

I wouldn't call Heortling communities which are primarily herders or farmers with coastal fishing as subsidiary activity fisherfolk, even though those people doing the subsidiary fishing would likely worship Pelaskos. My definition of fisherfolk starts with "Men of the Arans" or the Halogaland coastal Finns (Lapps) of the Viking era, peoples who as a community depend on fishing for at least 50% of their sustenance.

There might be an odd Heortling community going that far, but I'd be more with people of Islander (or Karse Pelaskite) stock living in an arrangement with the farming and herding communities nearby. They would be very odd in the eyes of Islander Pelaskite, but still recognisable as Pelaskites.

On the other hand, I can easily see Dawn Age Pelaskite colonies at Sklar, Leskos and Vizel (the Heortland port cities) having been absorbed into the Heortling cities during the last 1300 years. My Karse has had less than 300 years for this process, though, and experienced a change of mind when the Opening gave more power to the Sea Tribe worshippers.

>>And the first "Theyalans" to reach Old Karse were most likely Argan
> Argar traders sent by the OOO, back in the Gray Age.

> I'd say they were probably folk living up the River - Garanvuli or other
> Heortlings.

Heortling tribes nearby were the Sedenorvuli occupying southern Beast Valley, the Garanvuli between Solthi and Syphon, the Orvantes on the Upper Marzeel, and Volsax' and Dreven's folk in modern Volsaxar. IMO only the Sedenorvuli and Garanvuli were present before the Dawn, and the other groups were (Dawn Age) Resettlement splinter tribes.

The Pelaskites of Dawn Karse were famed for the quality of their wooden boats, so I can see a cooperation with the Orvantes on the Upper Marzeel for timber trade.

> The Heortlings and the Esrolvuli populations increased much
> faster than the non-Theyalans. A lot of folk that survived the Dawn
> ended up being assimilated into the larger agrarian population.

The Heortling-style combination of agriculture and herding is very productive, but fishing as the main source of sustenance can rival that. Especially where two such groups can exchange their surplus.

>> Joerg:There is a society where every man is a fisherman as much as every

> Heortling man is a farmer. This is different from coastal Heortlings or
> Esrolians worshipping Pelaskos rather than Poverri as the fourth
> provider.

> Yeah, but I don't think that society has been predominant in Karse for a
> very long time.

My date for the settlement of New Karse is c. 1340, which makes the exposure to Heortling culture a lot shorter.

--__--__-- Received on Sat 02 Oct 2004 - 06:57:16 EEST

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