[Glorantha]Re: Karse etc

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:58:10 +0200 (CEST)

Light Castle

<Swashbuckling Humakti>

> I could see Karse importing them from Nochet. It's a prestige thing.
> Probably not a lot, though.  In fact, given its location, I could see
> Karse having both the typical Orlanthi ones and the Nochet style,
> creating a bit of rivarly.

It only takes a few weaponmasters teaching their style among the faddish...

> Joerg (Wives of Pelaskos)

>> One might argue that Oskippos is a Heortling name for Golod, but I'm
>> open for other suggestions.

> That's not an insane argument.

As if those were my speciality... ;-)

> It would put something of a different spin on the
> Oskippos story, and certainly is a possibility. Oskippos as an
> avenger/warrior is also intriguing.

But overcome by a fisherman, and so out of his element that he gave up at once, and completely.

>> Keeping some of the gifts of control over sea creatures she received
>> from her husband, making a subcult similar to Goose Girl feasible.
>> this might be treading on Choralinthor's mythical territory.

> That's what I'm thinking.  And I wouldn't want to do that since the
> Pelaskites seem to have survived primarily on that bay. So he
> shouldn't be ignored in the mythology.

Choralinthor's role should be as important as Pelaskos'. What are his powers? Calm water (although I do believe that's rather in spite of wind than because of power over the wind), provide food, survive hopeless situations?

>>> I have to agree with this. I saw Pelaskos as the Fisherman, but he has
>>> lots of minor gods
>>> and daimons helping him. (This would appear to be supported by the
>>> adventure in the HQ book.)

>> Which one?

> The Fish Rain one. It has Oralprath as a minor god who has a couple of
> temples in the Holy Country, along the coast. He is described as "a
> great friend of the Twin Fishers, Oralprath was one of those who cast
> magical nets and dragged up everything that was alive or dead."

Funny thing about that is that I associate the gaff as a tool for line fishing...

> So here's a minor god who helps with the nets, just as we speculated.

And still has his defining adventure going solo. Somehow I feel there are too many solo missions around...

>> I had Pelaskos rather in a Vingkot-like role. A hero rediscovering how
>> to access the Pelaskos ways in the Silver Age (after the Godtime magics
>> changed and new ways had to be found, see Hantrafal) would be nice to
>> know, so that we get a minor Silver Age hero for the Pelaskites.

> We have proposed Karse itself as this, which might work. I do really like
> the Heler link, though. In fact, since this Gloranthan Q&A
> (http://www.glorantha.com/new/q-and-
> a/orlanthi.html) has Greg saying "Similarly, the Helerings survive among
> the Heortlings with significant populations (in the Dawn Age) in
> modern Esrolia and Wenelia.", does
> that mean the Pelaskites could be Helerings?

Could be. Heler had been cut off ocean powers, but the survivors of his people might have followed someone leading them back to the seas.

<Karse the God/dess>

>> Yes. Basically, you have two settings of Imperial Age ruins nearby: Old
>> Karse and Lylket. While I doubt that there will be much left in terms of
>> tangible treasures, there might be hidden knowledge in mural paintings
>> or carvings.

> Lylket didn't last very long though, did it?

180 years or so. Sufficient to leave traces.

<The Sacred Marriage>

>> Moirades has two named children - Pharandros and Estal Donge. His
>> wife (not the FHQ, and possibly not the Durnsa woman who is mother of
>> Estal Donge) or the wife of Pharandros is Fazzur's sister. Prince
>> Orontes of Tarsh War fame most likely is only a distant relative or the
>> generation offspring of some (possibly ritual) extramarital affair of
>> Phargentes (or Moirades) (likely with an unmarried mother of bastard
>> blood, or something similarly unuseable for dynastic succession but
>> still royal enough to keep up the stipend). That's a problem with the
>> dynasty - too few children for an extended royal clan, unless you pull
>> similar stunts to those legitimizing the majority of the Argraths.

> What's Fazzur's lineage like. Doesn't he have a bunch of sons? (although I > seem to recall many of them meeting a bad end)

Yeah, but that's only to be expected when you lead a rebellion against your king. Think Rose Wars for the conflict between Fazzur (RIchard of York) and Moirades (Henry VI). With Onjur somehow resembling Richard III... <Gift giving and the Fair>

>> If it still works out with the Gifting Day rites, that would be a
>> benefit.

Looking that up, it happens in Sacred Time. Not much help.

>>> Perhaps this can't be easily messed with, so Fazzur (and whoever he
>>> leaves in charge) needs to wait a year to push new people into place?
>>> That gives a year of vicious political maneuvering for position. It
>>> also ties in nicely with the line that the port was fully functional by
>>> "next spring".  Given the minimal damage, the port was functional, but it
>>> wasn't until next spring that the Lunars had replaced everyone with
>>> their lackeys.

>> This reasoning has too much story potential to be ignored. But again,
>> that's only one possible story line.

> Both options (yours above) and the one I propose have lots of potential > for story and for creating situations the PCs might get involved in.

Then let's keep both "in the book" for the referee to choose from.


>> Hence the river gods as candidates. Or even sort of a former lake on the
>> river mouth, which may have formed the harbour of Old Karse when Engizi
>> still ran east of the Shadow Plateau.

> There's a thought I hadn't considered. Besides the river running > differently, even the mouth of the bay may have looked quite different.

Water levels have fallen. The part of the river under tidal effects will have expanded inland, Marzeel alone being way to weak to egalize that.

>>> Good point. We might also want to think about whether or not we're
>>> doing the coastal Pelaskite culture here, or just Karse. (Admittedly, if
>>> Karse was a major survival center, then there is a great deal of

>> Given my Karse character's backstory, I want to do the coastal Pelaskite
>> culture. I feel that we are getting slightly different Pelaskites here
>> who are worse as fishermen but less dependent on the Ludoch.

> I think we also need to figure out how Orlanthi the Pelaskites are. After
> all, if you survive the Darkness on the shores of the bay, why would you
> consider yourself Storm Tribe?
> You've got the earth and the sea taking care of you.

You can go with the "Lightbringer Tribe".

<Wiki Wiki Wiki!!!>

>>> Sounds like the Pelaskites are going to need a few major tweaks on >>> some gods and goddesses here.

>> Variant myths, too, if only in Prosopaedia short form.

> I think the Prosopaedia short form is a good thing to aim for.

Suggestions welcome.

>> I'm inclined to put Pelaskos beside Vingkot and Durev, although for a
>> lesser tribe. Probably closer to Harand Boardick in importance (founder
>> of the Haranding Manirian Orlanthi inhabiting western Wenelia and
>> parts of Esrolia).

>> Another term I have seen was "Diroti Boat People", but that may have
>> been a God Learner seeing people moving along in boats.

>> Heortling Pelaskos worshippers wouldn't be called Pelaskites as an
>> ethnic descriptor.

> I'm liking the smaller tribe approach more and more. Something like Durev,
> but they don't get absorbed into the main culture. So actually Orlanthi in
> origin, but by now fairly different.

Which might be possible for the Caladralanders, too.

>> I'm inclined to say that both Pelaskite strains have largely reunited
>> during history, but there may be several differences left in completely
>> local families that could explain local differences.

> I also think that Karse is somewhat unique because of the presence of
> Karse, somehow tied to this being the location of the actual survival.
> Thus the rest of the coastal Pelaskites will be a bit different.

On a different footing in contact with the Heortlings and Esrolians. In Dawn Age and Imperial Age Karse, they are the majority, unlike along the coasts.

>> The Rightarm People are known as Pelaskites, I can assure you of that
>> and are definetly a well defined culture, I have spent a long time
>> them over the last 6 years. I would reveal more by NDA mean that I
can't. :-D

> You know, Simon, it occurs to me that Joerg and I may be making our lives
> difficult for no reason. If the coastal and island Pelaskites are not TOO
> different, then we might have to change all of this when your stuff
comes out.

OTOH, with the premise that they are more Heortling than what has been published in Tales and TT yet not completely Heortling, we won't be very wrong.

> Joerg

>> I'm inclined to have Pelaskos die or disappear during the Greater
>> Darkness, like the Thunder Brothers and the Weaver Women. If so, other
>> survival helpers will figure in Pelaskite worship.

> So he gets brought back at the Dawn?

Just like the providers of the Heortlings, in the wake of the Lightbringers.

>> And the first "Theyalans" to reach Old Karse were most likely Argan
>> Argar traders sent by the OOO, back in the Gray Age.

> Which could explain why we want them (in line with the old Carse > supplement) to have some strong matrilineal influences.

Seagoing fishermen have a high mortality rate when they happen to get into bad weather or currents. With the sea god and mermen as allies, this may be lessened somewhat, but still the women can expect to live considerably longer. This makes them the natural choice as keepers of the traditions.

Karse and the Pelaskites

>> I had Pelaskos rather in a Vingkot-like role. A hero rediscovering how
>> to access the Pelaskos ways in the Silver Age (after the Godtime magics
>> changed and new ways had to be found, see Hantrafal) would be nice to
>> know, so that we get a minor Silver Age hero for the Pelaskites.

> I thought Pelaskos was a Silver Age god (or hero, why not).

Poverri is his twin, and Poverri is one of the four providers, backbone of Vingkotling and Heortling culture.

> Someone considered that some Pelaskites may be polygamous. When
> Joerg said the treaty wife thing, and the brothels (pleasure
> wives?) etc.

Polyandrous wouldn't really work with fishermen plying the seas. This can be a high mortality business. But that might just pronounce that continuity is maintained by the females.

Jane Williams

>> Call me an idealist, but then I believe that one cannot
>> become an Argrath if one knows all four great-grandpas and
>> great-grandmas for sure, unless one of those was a known
>> royal family member or bastard. Kallyr is about the only
>> Argrath with a known royal descent.

> We might need a different thread if we're going to go round that
> discussion again, but in any case it's been altered by Greg & co
> splitting all the different Argraths up. As I recall, we ended up with
> three of them (not counting Kallyr), and all three had royal blood in
> there somewhere. But yes, we now have two official lines of royal
> descent for Argraths (we made up the one for AWB), and half a dozen or
> so guys claimimg the name. Not enough bloodlines to go round.

Enough unexplored ones - Onelisin had three daughters, for instance.

>> >>> I do like the swashbuckling, that's cool, although I thought
>> >>> Humakti were grimmer than that.

>> >> See Jane's reply for tons of sense.

>> > ??? Can I quote you on that?

>> As a reply I can quote you, from above:
>> "I doubt if I've said much of relevance, [...]"

> Oh. OK. I'd still like to know who it was who put lace-trimmed Humakti > into GAG, myself.

Duelists with jewel-studded swords, and no lace? Wouldn't work.

--__--__-- Received on Mon 04 Oct 2004 - 00:04:11 EEST

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