[Glorantha] Maniria

Joerg:

>We have since learned that the Manirian tribes were not Hsunchen but
>boar-totem proto-Orlanthi, possibly Durevings or related folk.

The Durevings of Bilon and Adoren are neither proto-Orlanthi nor boartotemic  people. They are just as Orlanthi as the Vingkotlings and I cannot understand why Maniria has to be populated by seven indistinguishable tribes of pig-worshippers.

>I'm still puzzled whether there was a matriarchal earth culture with a pig
>focus which marched along down from Dini, whether it preceded the arrival
>of the Vingkotlings in Kerofinela, or whether it entered or migrated in
>from southern Peloria (Saird).

The Vingkotlings did not arrive in Kerofinela. Orlanthi were dwelling in Kerofinela as early as the Storm Tribe Age (TR p144). They become Vingkotlings after the Flood. As for the earth culture, the Earth People are described as living in Kethaela during the Storm Tribe Age. That Ernalda comes from Saird is not necessarily evidence that the Ernaldings migrated from Saird to Kethaela. It could just mean that during the Storm Tribe Age, Ernalda displaced Esrola or Asrelia as the premier earth goddess of Kethaela.

Secondly, the alleged pig focus. There is scant trace of pig worship in Saird. On the Gods Wall, pigs are associated with Pelanda while the beasts of the south are goats. The Balazaring relationship with pigs was introduced by Balazar himself after stealing it from the Dragons (which implies the EWF in Dragon Pass rather than Saird).

As for alleged pig focus in Kethaela, again there is little evidence. The sole factoid is that the Harandings who live next to Kethaela are big on pigs. Yet the Esrolians, the supposed origin of the pig culture also herd goats (HQ p42), cows, sheep and geese (HQV p15). Hence the circumstances by which the Harandings acquired pigs is unusual but it is unlikely to be the result of being chased out of Esrolia if the Esrolians themselves are not fixated on pigs despite being a society bent on restoring the most ancient traditions.

>Me> We now know there were other peoples in the
> > region such as the Helerings and the Lopers.

>Are we sure about the Dawn Age presence of the Lopers?

Giving that the Helerings are listed numerous times in the list of foes and that the Loper people are unambiguously there when Svagard conquered Slontos, the weight of evidence is there for being a population of Loper people in Slontos.

> > [Helerings, Voti, Trolls, Bird-heads] will have left their traces in
> Slontos.

>Mostly off-shore, or above Erenplose.

Nope. The trolls are present in and around Troll Mountain while the Helerings have a significant presence in Maniria even now. Who the Voti and the Bird-Heads are is a good question but it seems pointless to say they did not survive the Great Darkness just so Maniria can be populated by yet another tribe of boring pig-lovers.

>We know that the Helerings became
>land-bound when Heler lost his sea powers, and that they became the third
>Great Tribe of the Orlanthi.

Heler didn't lose his sea powers until long after the Helerings became Orlanthi and just because Helerela is depicted as land on the Heortling mythic map does not make it so. The Malkioni map for the same era depicts a sea in the region of Helerela and so IMO the Helerings still had a maritime culture then.

> > Who are not pig people but worship a number of animal totems.

>For sure we know the pig totem for the Harandings, the group neighbouring
>the Kodigvari and the shepherding Jaranings of the Vingkotlings.

I was talking about the Wenelians, not the Harandings or the Jaranings. Tradetalk #11 describes the Wenelians as having the totems of Stag, Otter, Lion, Badger, Boar, Fox, Bull, Wolf, Bear, Beaver, Stallion and Hound. Hence to consider them yet another tribe of pig-lover is wrongheaded.

>Another in-voice history. Both the Vingkotlings and the Heortlings knew
>well enough about the Harandings and Aramites, but Thunder Rebels
>doesn't mention them at all for that period.

Simply because neither the Harandings and Aramites were significant at that time? The Aramites didn't even exist until Aram tamed Gouger sometime during the Silver Age.

>Proof that it is not a complete
>source, but rather a source for keeping track of kin.

It's strange then that the source mentions the Talastings, the Andin Horde, the Zarkosites and the Votanki, none of whom were close relatives of the Vingkotlings or overly powerful during the period in question.

>Note that the Helerings are mostly absent, too.

No, they are not. They are mentioned twice in Helerela and Sylila.

>I'd locate the reclaimed lands further south, below the Solkathi Sea.

Why? What possible purpose does that give us? Why if these lands were so unimportant to modern day Orlanthi do they make much of remembering the itsy bitsy different lands that lay to the southwest? Why don't they just collapse the whole kit and kaboodle into one vast realm and forget about it?

>The Breaking of the World had the oceans claim many of
>these lands again, and only few refugees making it to Maniria.

And what is wrong with the oceans claiming the lowlands leaving the lands looking like Maniria in the Dawn Age?

> > or that the Ramalians were pig-worshippers at the Dawn.

>And this too isn't necessary, since we can expect that somewhere in
>Slontos Helerings and Entruli populations must have mingled. The early
>Waertagi voyages (even in the Gray Age) appear to have found proto-urban
>centres in Slontos (similar to Karse?), which seems unlike anything we
>know about the Harandings or the Wenelians.

But not for the Durevings? Which follows naturally from equating mythical Velun with historical Ramalia rather than saying Velun now lies beneath the Solkanthi.

> > Calling the Harandings Hsunchen in 0 ST is even more inaccurate
> > than it is now. At the Dawn, the Hsunchen were only found in
> > the Shanshan mountains.

>I'd like to see your source for this.

          The survivors are today called 'hsunchen,' a Kralori term that
          was spread by the God Learners in the Imperial Age. Those
          intrepid explorers discovered that the scattered and weak
          primitives of their West carried on traditions similar to those
          of the eastern tribes that dominated the Shanshan Mountains
          of Kralorela. They transported wise men back and forth across
          the continent to observe their interactions, and in this way
          united some tribes that had long been lost from each other.
          Consequently, traditions are even more similar across the
          continent now than they were at the Dawn.

          http://www.glorantha.com/library/hsunchen.html

>To my knowledge, there were Hsunchen or at least sufficiently
>Hsunchen-like people in Pralorela, Seshnela, Ralios and Fronela during
>Greater Darkness, Gray Age and Dawn Age.

They may have been Hsunchen-like but they were not Hsunchen. If you want a label for them then Hykimi is the best word to use.

>The Praxian Basmoli may have
>passed through Maniria during that time, too.

The Praxian Basmoli aren't Hsunchen either at the Dawn but _Fiwan_, from Revealed Mythologies p33.

--Peter Metcalfe