From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Fri 05 Jan 1996 - 05:42:42 EET
Sandy Petersen:
===============
David Hall:
As for Nysalor's Empire being at least as advanced, I dispute
The 'more cultured' second age empires. I find this difficult
DARK EMPIRE: The place was ruled by Trolls! The highest mark an
EASTERN SEAS: Let me see. All threads of Theya's Net lead to the
>>There is a pattern of evolution in Glorantha from primitive
>>societies to more civilised societies.
> Pamaltelan savannah, in which the tendency is to drop
>civilization in favor of the nomad way.
You're arguing from an example of one here. The Agimori were never
part of Artmal's Empire and the Kresh were never urbanized AFAIK.
>and sophisticated societies are almost all past phenomena. Compare
>the Empire of Nysalor to the modern-day Lunars -- Nysalor's empire
>was at least as advanced. And the second-age empires were
>unanimously far more cultured than those in the late third-age.
This seems to me to be falling into the same kind of error that
labelled the early middle ages Dark.
this. I think the Lunar Empire is more advanced than the Bright
Empire in terms of religious/magical awareness having built upon
many of the things that Nysalor taught. A RW analogy would be
a modern day computer as compared to Babbages Analytical Engine.
In terms of technology and political organization I think the
Lunars are far ahead. This is because the Bliss of Nysalor's
Empire rested upon the enlightenment of its rulers rather than any
political organisation or technological adavnce. All this however
ultimately turned sour as the leaders fell into the Dark Side.
to digest. I don't accept brute magcial prowess (Tanian's
victory) as a sign of culture anymore than I can call a 1950's
gas-guzzling cadillac the height of motor car technology or a
Ptolemiac sixteener a pinnacle of Hellenistic Martime Technology.
average troll has attained culture-wise is to eat somebody's legs
off with a knife and fork instead of using his fingers.
Jeweled Isle of Mokato. While they may have lead lives of unparalled
sophistication before the Renunciation, I doubt that many of the other
isles enjoyed this prosperity. One of the reasons, methinks, for the
inital success and survival of Valkaro's mission.
ELF EMPIRE: From what I hear, the place was ruled by special
EWF: Ruled by the Dragons to whom the niceties of human culture
plants of the House of Errinoru which gave off special scents that
compelled most other aldryami to obey any member of the House of
Errinoru. Does not qualify as culture in my book.
were immaterial.
GOD LEARNER SESHNELA: If we are taking the chivalry of the
KRALORELA: The current adminstration of kralorela is largely
SIX LEGGED EMPIRE: The majority of inhabitants dwelt in
Castle Coasters as an example of what the God Learners were like
(something which I don't believe) then I should point out this
only applied in the Courts and amongst the God Learners themselves
and not the people who the God learners fought (Vralos Elves,
Waertagi, Safelster etc). Nor am I persuaded that the lot of the
God Learner farmer was much changed (ie they were mostly serfs
rather than free farmers/Kulaks).
unchanged from days of the False Dragons' Ring save for the
reinstitution of the Civil Service, a hefty amount of window
dressing and the fictitious backdating of the FDR reforms to
Yanoor's Saintly reign IMO.
Latifundium. The Arbennan Kingdom is more cultured than
the Six Legged Empire.
> Glorantha myth -- most folk agree that things were better
>in the good old days, from the Praxians to the dwarfs to the East
>Islanders.
The key word is myth here. I'm sure some members of the KKK view
antebellum Southern USA as a golden age today when the Whites ruled
everything and the darkie knew his place. This land of glory was
hunted and cast down by the Evil Northerners. Sound Familiar? Just
because most folks believe it to be so doesn't make it so. For the
Praxians and the East Islers, they may be right, but I doubt that
the Kralori, Dara Happans or the Malkioni claims of a Golden Age are
similarly valid.
> Is it not likely that Hsunchen have diminished, not because
>they've evolved away from the old ways, but because they've been
>cut back? Or because they've outright joined another culture. A
>Tiger Man leaving his clan to become a true Kralori is not an
>examplar of cultural evolution, but rather demonstrates cultural
>competition and replacement. Just a thought.
Whilst true, one must remember that both the Hsunchen of the
Shan-Shan Mountains and Fronela are more sophisticated
materially and socially than your average 'primitive' hsunchen
found in the Telmori (where lycanthropy acts as a retardant to
sophistication) and in Tarien (which is very remote from civilized
areas).
This is because the Uncoling and Shan-shan hsunchen have been in
longterm contact with the civilized lands of Loskalm and Kralorela.
Thus they have developed pastoralism, have more sophisticated
craftwork and have a nobility of sorts. Thus the Hsunchen are
capable of cultural evolution. Although to what extent they must
abandon their hsuncheness to progress further is something I'm
unsure about.
The Rathori whom you have said are in the process of doing so, have
had one major god stolen by Harrek the beserk and many lore bearers
killed by the aforementioned renegade. Thus IMO they are abandoning
their Hsunchen ways because it has been severely damaged and in the
act of repairing it, they are having to adopt many outside customs
which will ultimately dilute their hsunchen heritage.
- --Peter Metcalfe
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