From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Fri 05 Jan 1996 - 14:43:12 EET
> My point was that beliefs of the city folk (ie Bright Empire and all
> that) are unlikely to be a measure of the sophistication (primarily
> religious) of the rural folk (y'know the man in the field).
And I still say that the changes did matter to the man in the field.
During the EWF Life (i.e. Fertility) was built up tremendously, and
Under Nysalor's reign, foreign cults' magics were available to those
who had listened to the riddlers long enough. Like Earthwarm for Kerofini
winters, or Cloudcall for Dara Happan rice farmers...
could be focussed by those steeped in draconic wisdom. Nifty for
farming, isn't it?
> Nothing Joerg has written has addressed this.
Oh, it did, but Peter didn't read that, it seems.
Peter says that a maximum of 10% of the inhabitants were inhabitants of
the cities. True.
But:
You cannot live within a day's march of a city and not notice at all
If your clan priests gain their special (per RQ rules "common divine")
what happens there. When for instance the Mennonites in Muenster ran
religious amok, all the countryside learned about that in no time
short.
spells from a larger temple, then any change of doctrine at that temple
will demand an adaption of the rural priest to these changes, or "no
Heal Wound, no Sanctify".
> The only time he has come close in mentioning Sartarite Rebels as
> an example of a modern tattooed Orlanthi as counterpoint to the
> claim that the Orlanthi _leaders_ of bygone ages were tattooed and
> the modern urban Orlanthi are not. [I had already mentioned Kallyr
> Starbrow as an exception.]
> Were the Kings of Sartar tattooed? Was Duke Dorasar?
No. The members of the Royal House of Sartar were civilized Kethaelans,
for Belintar's sake, and not even necessarily worshippers of Orlanth
to begin with. Certainly they were _not_ mainstream Orlanthi leaders.
As infused with foreign ideas as King Phargentes of Tarsh, or
Fazzur Wideread.
> The only people he can point to are religious fanatics
> (mostly humakti) and _not_ the mainstream leaders of Orlanthi
> Society.
Who are the mainstream leaders of Orlanthi society? Yrsa Nightbeam,
initiate of Kyger Litor and Queen of the Torkani? Harvar Ironfist,
initiate of Yelm? Urrgh the Ugly?
I'm fairly certain Queen Leika Ballista wore "that tattoo too".
Hofstaring Treeleaper would have. Kallai Rockbuster would. Sarostip
Cold-eye would.
Garaystar Flatnose wouldn't. Neither would Minaryth Purple or
Gringle Goodsell.
Most of these people are members of the 1613 Sartar High Council. Some
did support the rebellion afterwards, others didn't, tattooed and
untattooed in both groups.
Ok, a counter-example: When Blackmor the Rabbit publicly converted
to 7Moms, he received a red-coloured facial skin (in one of the Home
of the Bold runs, if not in both).
> Whereas in the Broken Council Freeform, virtually all
> the Orlanthi Leaders (say for the urbane Dorastorans) had such a
> tattoo.
Yes. Or at least woad paintings. So what? Half of them rebelled against
Actually, I fail to see the point in this tattoo obsession of Peter.
the council, half of them supported its ways.
We know that the EWF introduce a different, distinctive style of clothing
etc. overnight in its territories (along with the dart, which has
remained in use throughout its former territory).
> I also said that only in the modern Orlanthi 'Civilization' (ie the
> tribal system of Alakoring) are clan surpluses being redistributed
> within the clan
I must have overlooked that. Well, so clan surpluses aren't traded in
the Dragon Pass kingdoms? What do the Colymar clans do with all their
clearwine?
And the redistribution of surpluses within one's kin is hardly what I
would call "modern". Neolithic hunters did distribute their surpluses.
> as opposed to the 'Orlanthi' empires where it went
> to the cities in the form of taxes.
Like Sartar, Tarsh, Aggar, Talastar, you mean? Bolthor didn't need the
> And source for this Old Day Traditionalists adopted the EWF to
Lunars to grab his taxes from the farmers.
KoS. They accepted the draconized cults by attending their ceremonies,
From where the local wise men could rechannel it into increased fertility
leting their mana join that of the fervent dragonfriends, allowing it
to be channeled to the awakening Great Dragon.
to all, past the Bless Crops crap.
>>The tragedy about civilized Orlanthi is that they lose their cultural
>>identity and become relatively easy prey for whatever "new" religion is
>>dominant [examples snipped].
> Complete Bullshit.
So?
No. Do other people around here think they are Orlanthi? Certainly not
Are they the same breed as a Brolian Orlanthi? The same creed? No.
the Rokari invaders.
Do they have the same laws and crimes? No.
> Was the fall of the Kingdom of Sartar due to a loss of cultural
Would you say it was in character for an Orlanthi tribal federation
But one reason for the fall of Sartar _at that time_ was their kings'
to fall before the Empire's power?
interference with the Lunar affairs in Tarsh earlier, like their support
for Palashee Longaxe, Jarolor's involvement in the Aldachuri resistance
against Phargentes' invasion of the seditious Far Point tribes, or
Tarkalor's meddling in the Bagnot Exiles' defense. Traditional Orlanthi
kings would have aided the Lunars now and then, not consequently oppose
them.
> Did the cult of Orlanth Dragonfriend think they were
> draconists supplanting the worship of Orlanth?
No. Did Alakoring think they were? Yes.
> Did Lokaymadon think he was destroying Orlanthi worship?
No. Did Harmast think so? Yes.
> The majority of Joerg's reply made great mention about the civilised
> achievements of the past empires among the Orlanthi managing to
> completely _miss_ my point that the plight of the rural Orlanthi
> changed little.
What plight? Do you mean the annual sequence of sowing, tending, and
harvesting? That wouldn't have changed if they had become Brithini.
So, I have to ask Peter:
Were these rural dummy farmers without any distinctive religious mark?
Were they Orlanthi with an active interest in their spiritual lives? In
If so, you actually made my point, in that case they had become civilized.
that case those within a day's travel of a temple were infected, or at
least affected, by the greater changes.
And town density was much greater than in modern Dragon Pass, if
Hrestol Arganitis - an urban type merchant-explorer of colonialist
blend who'd likely snigger at what the Sartarites call cities - named
as towns or cities without adjectives like "squalid".
The cities Hrestol Arganitis mentions don't cover half the known EWF
ruins of Dragon Pass, let alone those who were overbuilt by
post-Dragonkill settlers, or those which have disappeared into obscurity.
He mentions "only the most interesting, and largest, cities" in his
report...
>>Ok, maybe this did not touch all (85%) of the Orlanthi, but definitely
> The only material
>>more than half of them, enough so that a generalization can be used.
>>Unless you describe rural as "living two days hard ride from the next
>>stead"...
> change to the rural Orlanthi would have been to whom they paid
> their taxes, how much they paid their taxes and what type of soldiers
> would have been sent to rape pillage and plunder if they didn't pay
> their taxes.
Well, it does make a difference whether:
a neighbouring clan raids, impregnates the women, carries of the cattle
and maybe some women,
or
Palangio's troops come on a punitive raid, rape the men, carry off whole
families as slaves or for resettlement, crucify the sheep,
or
dragonewts come and eat every tenth villager because they failed to pay
Especially the rural populace was affected by the settling policy of
Losing every boy coming of age who attempts to become initiated to
Having a stead near the Ormsthere Valley (he went only later) does
When Drang was slain by Alakoring and lots of (rural as well as urban)
Having the alternative as a younger son to go to a city, the standing
Middle 2nd Age Dragon Pass wasn't that different from 3rd Age Esrolia for
Late 2nd Age Dragon Pass had whole communities becoming one with the
their taxes.
the 2nd Council - northern Ralios was conquered from the Vustrians by
the river valley settlers, and only then defended by the monster troops.
Orlanth the old way doesn't affect the farming communities of
Lokamayadon's era?
affect one's general life, don't you think? Being able to parlay with
dragonewts, or even to dispel dream dragons, did affect the EWF farmers.
priests who had lent their essence (much like the Lunar schools aiding
the super-Sunspear against Harrek) to the fight suffered from the
repercussions, do you think the rural Orlanthi relying on these very
priests were unaffected?
army, or the draconic hierarchy, instead of just clearing another patch
of unsuitable soil in overcrowded Dragon Pass of Hrestol Arganitis
doesn't change a villager's perspective?
the farmers, IMO. The almighty cult provided increased fertility for
everyone.
dragons, departing from the mundane plane.
These were the Orlanthi I talk about, and by no measure just city types.
- --
Joerg Baumgartner
joe@toppoint.de
------------------------------
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