From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idgecko.idsoftware.com)
Date: Fri 12 Jan 1996 - 22:03:11 EET
I say: Gloranthan history shows absolutely no trend of "evolving"
from a so-called primitive state into a civilized one. The best
example is, of course, the Agimori.
Peter M.
>You're arguing from an example of one here. The Agimori were never
>part of Artmal's Empire and the Kresh were never urbanized AFAIK.
a) some Agimori _were_ in Artmal's Empire.
b) all the Agimori got to see the benefits of that empire's
civilization, yet they did not adopt them.
c) they saw the benefits of the Six-Legged Empire, which
was largely run by Agimori, yet did not maintain them.
d) they have plenty of contact with Fonrit, yet do not
adopt their ways.
I say:
>Compare the Empire of Nysalor to the modern-day Lunars --
Nysalor's >empire was at least as advanced.
P.M.
>This seems to me to be falling into the same kind of error that
>labelled the early middle ages Dark.
Spare me your cultural darwinism. If you're going to
contend that I'm subject to outdated theses, watch your own windows.
>As for Nysalor's Empire being at least as advanced, I dispute
>And the second-age empires were unanimously far more cultured than
>DARK EMPIRE: The place was ruled by Trolls!
>this.
Well, neither I nor the Lunars concur with you.
>those in the late third-age.
>>I don't accept brute magcial prowess (Tanian's victory) as a sign
>>of culture
What do you accept then? The introduction of architectural
styles that are still used everywhere their empire's touched? The
standardization of coinage and language? The innovation of complex
trade networks that benefited the entire planet? The building of
cities and the appearance of a true middle class for perhaps the
first time in Gloranthan history? The establishment of industry?
The second age was so far beyond modern Glorantha it's hard
today to comprehend the gulf that separates the two worlds.
Crude pseudo-racist wit, unworthy of response. As well call
humans hairless club-wielding apes.
>EASTERN SEAS: All threads of Theya's Net lead to the Mokato. While
>ELF EMPIRE: the place was ruled by special plants. Does not
>GOD LEARNER SESHNELA: Nor am I persuaded that the lot of the
>KRALORELA: The current adminstration of kralorela is largely
>SIX LEGGED EMPIRE: The majority of inhabitants dwelt in
Sandy P.
>they may have lead lives of unparalled sophistication, I doubt
that >many of the other isles enjoyed this prosperity.
Then you err. The other islands enjoyed similar, if lesser
prosperity.
qualify >as culture in my book.
The way they took rule has nothing to do with their
cultural sophstication. When they left, the elves mourned for them,
and still do. They do not seem to feel they were bamboozled. They
enabled the jungle to work as a single unit from Laskal to Dinal,
coordinating the elf realms for the first time ever.
>God Learner farmer was much changed (ie they were mostly serfs
>rather than free farmers/Kulaks).
Sez who? The God Learners used automatons, mandrakes,
homunculi, and other constructs to perform dull everyday tasks.
>unchanged from days of the False Dragons' Ring
Evidence that the olden times weren't so crude after all, no?
>Latifundium. The Arbennan Kingdom is more cultured than the Six
>Legged Empire.
What does the first statement have to do with their
kingdom's degree of civilization? Most of the population of New York
State live in New York City but that doesn't mean that the rest of
the state doesn't count as part of the same governed body. There is
no Arbennan Kingdom. The Doraddi are a sophisticated people
culturally, like Australian Aborigines, Bushmen, and Dyaks. But
surely they don't fit your definition of "advanced".
------------------------------
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #321
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