From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Sun 14 Jan 1996 - 02:03:53 EET
Alex Ferguson:
==============
Alex Ferguson thought about a Lunar Political Boardgame along the lines
of 'Republic of Rome' but comments that it doesn't work because the
Empire is too centralised.
Rather than base the chief political arena on the senate, I think it
would still be possible to base it on the clans. The main concept is
the Egi. For those who do not have the Fortunate Succession, the Egi
are a bunch of People who live on the Moon and channel their energies
to the Red Emperor on earth.
IMO many of the old ones were killed of by Sheng when he ransacked the
Moon. Most of them have been replaced by Clan Heroes and still owe a
clan affliation (ie they recieve Worship from a Satrapy). Since the Egi
channel energy to the Red Emperor, the Emperor has to curry favour with
them by reqwarding some clans richly (which translates into more sacrifices
to their Egi and consequently more personal power). There are wars on
the Moon as the Egi scheme to cast down a neighbouring clan's Egi and
replace them with their own. If the Emperor pisses an Egi off, the Egi
could lapse the channel at an inopportune moment (like when the Emperor
is facing Harrek the Beserk).
On earth, the Emperor still looks as though he is in charge of things.
He distributes military assignments to clan personages on earth (like
Sor-Eel) so that they will one day be worthy to retire to the Moon when
one of the Egi is enlightened and passes on. Or the Mundane Heroe could
become powerful enough to pass the Ten Tests to become Emperor in their
own right.
Sandy Petersen:
===============
Me>>As for Nysalor's Empire being at least as advanced, I dispute
>>this.
> Well, neither I nor the Lunars concur with you.
So? Evidence? All we have is Lunar Mythologizing and Illumination.
The former is hardly evidence whereas the later has been built upon
and developed by the Lunars themselves.
>>>And the second-age empires were unanimously far more cultured than
>>>those in the late third-age.
>>I don't accept brute magcial prowess (Tanian's victory) as a sign
>>of culture
> What do you accept then? The introduction of architectural
>styles that are still used everywhere their empire's touched? The
>standardization of coinage and language? The innovation of complex
>trade networks that benefited the entire planet? The building of
>cities and the appearance of a true middle class for perhaps the
>first time in Gloranthan history? The establishment of industry?
Note that the word you used above was _CULTURE_. Not technological
It is my opinion that most (~95%) of the achievements of the second
advances, nor Civilization Cards. I'm talking about the transmission
of ideas and the complexity of social organisations. Merely retaining
something a bygone generation has invented, does not mean that the
later generation is LESS cultured than the former. To say 'I have
stood on the Shoulders of Giants and see a bit further' does not imply
that one is less cultured. You CAN say that the Third Age is more static
and that the Second Age was more innovative but that is completely
different to what you originally said.
age are part and parcel of the third age way of life. They have not
been forgotten but merely given a politically correct origin. The
Modern Malkioni Church owes more to the God Learners that it dares to
admit; all practice sorcery which was heavily refined by the God
Learners, frex. Most learned people in Glorantha get their history
of other places through what the God Learners said and wrote about
them. The list goes on.
One _can_ argue that since the Third Age no longer practices some
important arts of the previous age, they are off a lower culture.
This needs to be treated carefully. Just because the Togukawa
Shogunate of Japan outlawed firearms does not mean they are a lower
culture than the Warring States Period that preceded it!
Some advanced civilizations have fallen by the wayside like the EWF,
the Feldichi and the Artmali. But to assert that the second age is
a magical age that can never be repeated is fallacious to me. The
Lunar Empire, if it was transplanted back into the Second Age would
be recognized as a key example of such.
> The second age was so far beyond modern Glorantha it's hard
>today to comprehend the gulf that separates the two worlds.
This I strongly disagree with. We have a direct continuity with
some of the Empires of the period. If one Empire was beyond the
keen of Third Age, then it must have swallowed up the rest of the
Empires unless those other Empires were as strong as itself. But
Loskalm was able to throw of the rule of the God Learners in the
nineth century and never looked back. Dara Happa didn't succumb to
the EWF without a fight and it took them twenty years to do so. IMO
the size and scope of the All Powerful Second Age Empires is an
artefact of the geopolitical landscape.
If the secret of an Empire was rediscovered in Modern Glorantha, the
effect would be noticiable not not overwhelmingly so. Look at Argrath
ressurecting much of the magics of the EWF. Look what it did for him!
He never even got as far as Alkoth in all his wars! The Lunar Empire
could have easily defeated him save for the Horse Nomad and Chargg
intrusions which they had to fight at the same time.
>>DARK EMPIRE: The place was ruled by Trolls!
> Crude pseudo-racist wit, unworthy of response. As well call
>humans hairless club-wielding apes.
Wasn't it you who stated that Trolls could be viewed as creatures of
the Id. Thus most of their culture could be viewed as instinctive?
I'm sure given these features even the Telmori could set up a far more
socially sophisticated tribute empire...
>>ELF EMPIRE: the place was ruled by special plants. Does not
>>qualify as culture in my book.
> The way they took rule has nothing to do with their
>cultural sophstication. When they left, the elves mourned for them,
>and still do. They do not seem to feel they were bamboozled. They
>enabled the jungle to work as a single unit from Laskal to Dinal,
>coordinating the elf realms for the first time ever.
A continent spanning empire based on simple mind control does not
>>GOD LEARNER SESHNELA: Nor am I persuaded that the lot of the
imply higher culture whether you mean advanced technology or
higher social sophistication (which would be contradiction in terms!).
So what if the Elves mourn for the House of Errinoru?
>>God Learner farmer was much changed (ie they were mostly serfs
>>rather than free farmers/Kulaks).
> Sez who? The God Learners used automatons, mandrakes,
>homunculi, and other constructs to perform dull everyday tasks.
And every single farm had these marvellous contraptions? What did
Sandy also mentioned the development of Industry. This would be
the peasantry _do_ during their spare time? Given that in the RW not
every farm has a tractor (the nearest analog I can think of), I am
skeptical of the idea that this was standard equipment. If anything,
I would restrict the farm working automatons to the Machine City.
Elsewhere they would be too expensive and more confined to homemaking
around the palaces of the rich God Learners (ie cooking, sentries etc)
a prime example of Higher Culture by a Second Age Empire. I presume
it is of the kind that the romans would have discovered and ultilized
if they had more efficient land transport (Sci. Am. Nov 90). However
this seems to have been the preserve of the Zistorites. While there
may have been a strong middle class in the Machine City and Nochet (which
explains how it grew), I do not believe Seshnela, Jrustela and Umathela
were similarly affected.
>>KRALORELA: The current adminstration of kralorela is largely
>>unchanged from days of the False Dragons' Ring
> Evidence that the olden times weren't so crude after all, no?
Your original thesis was that the olden times were _more_ cultured and
vastly so. Just because I disagree with this does not mean I believe
the exact reverse to be completely and utterly true.
>>SIX LEGGED EMPIRE: The majority of inhabitants dwelt in
>>Latifundium.
> What does the first statement have to do with their
>kingdom's degree of civilization?
The six legged Empire worshipped Ompalam. I'm presuming the
It seems to me that the Empire was based on Coercion. 'Artmal' asks
description of it in the Prosopaedia was the God Learner description
of the Cult of Ompalam in the second age and since then it has grown
more sophisticated in Fonrit (more about this some other time). I am
also going from the known characteristics of the Cult of Ompalam and
the tales told about it by the Doraddi (Artmal and Cronisper, Hon
Hoolbitku etc).
for half of 'Cronispers' Crops simply because it was custom in the
north. There are no hints of recipopral benefits. There is nothing
about the need for an established order and bringing civilization to
the Veldt and taking up Ompalams burden. Simply saying 'Might is
Right' does not auger well for a society's social sophistication (ie
settlement of disputes, divison of inheritance etc).
>>The Arbennan Kingdom is more cultured than the Six Legged Empire.
>There is
>no Arbennan Kingdom. The Doraddi are a sophisticated people
>culturally, like Australian Aborigines, Bushmen, and Dyaks. But
>surely they don't fit your definition of "advanced".
When I said more cultured above, I *was* speaking of social
interactions here. Modern Doraddi society is considerably more
sophisticated than the Six Legged Empire given that they are
forced to talk/argue/fight about things and create positions of Social
Responsibility to deal with such things as opposed to the Six-Legged
Empire's practive of trying to Coerce the other fellow into agreeing
with you.
As for the Arbennan, I meant Confederation. Not that Ivi Kange
would appreciate the distinction.
Joerg Baumgartner:
==================
Writes on another good model for the Lunar Empire:
>look at the East Roman Empire. There you have the multinational court
>composition, sufficient decadence, your choice of state religions and
>tolerated ones, and lots of political murder.
'your choice of state and tolerated religions'? In the Byzantine Empire?
As in Hobson's Chorce or 'Choose the Official One or Die Horribly'?
Brian K. Curley:
================
>can someone either explain Illumination to me (geez I hope this isn't
>in the FAQ) or point me to a published source for an explanation?
'Dorastor: Land of Doom' contains the latest cult writeup of Illumination
and 'Lords of Terror' contains some additional notes.
- --Peter Metcalfe
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