From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idgecko.idsoftware.com)
Date: Tue 16 Jan 1996 - 03:36:43 EET
Peter's Definition of Culture: "the transmission of ideas and the
complexity of social organisations." We need something to define
along these lines. so I'm as willing to use this as anything else
(though I will also consider artistic, philosophical, technological,
and magical prowess, too)
Peter M.
>[re: Nysalor's glory] All we have is Lunar Mythologizing and
>Illumination.
And to the contrary we have only your inane Darwinistic
rantings. The only hard evidence we have suggests that Nysalor's
empire was superior at the transmission of ideas (it spread further,
faster than the Lunar ideal) and was at least as complex socially.
>Merely retaining something a bygone generation has invented, does
>not mean that the later generation is LESS cultured than the
former.
No, but the inability of any Third Age civilization built
upon the wreck of the EWF or God Learners to advance artistically,
technologically, magically, or socially past their forebears does
seem to imply that the Second Age dudes had something going for
them.
In Dragon Pass, there was a high civilization with
philosophical ideas so sophisticated that they cannot even be
half-comprehended by the current inhabitants. Even the degenerate
relics left by that civilization are impossible for any Third Age
group to replicate.
>It is my opinion that most (~95%) of the achievements of the second
>age are part and parcel of the third age way of life.
This explains why they have all returned to tribal
organizations, lost universal literacy, and engage in internecine
warring, I suppose.
The Third Age runs over the relics of the Second Age like
rats scrabbling through the ruins of old China or Egypt.
>Just because the Togukawa Shogunate of Japan outlawed firearms
does >not mean they are a lower culture than the Warring States
Period >that preceded it!
No. But the Warring States doesn't make a bad analogy for
the Third Age nations, while the Tokugawa Shogunate tends to
resemble the formalized and complex Second Age Empires.
>to assert that the second age is a magical age that can never be
>repeated is fallacious to me. The Lunar Empire, if it was
>transplanted back into the Second Age would be recognized as a key
>example of such.
No one has said that the Age of Empire is impossible of
replication (though unlikely). The fact that the Lunar Empire would
be able to hold its own in the Second Age only points up the huge
gulf between that age and our own. In the Third Age there are but
two vast Empires of any import -- the Lunars, and the Kralori. And
the Kralori have been around since the dawn, so only one (1) Empire
has arisen in this whole age, with no signs of any others
forthcoming; as compared to 8 great Empires in the 2nd Age, plus
probably at least a half-dozen smaller ones.
>We have a direct continuity with some of the Empires of the period.
What? The decadent Carmanians of the Lunar oppression? The
pathetic remnants of Mokato, restricted to their single island and
plotting dismally to regain lost glory through catspaws?
>Loskalm was able to throw of the rule of the God Learners in the
>Dara Happa didn't succumb to the EWF without a fight and it took
>Look at Argrath ressurecting much of the magics of the EWF. Look
>nineth century and never looked back.
Loskalm is not the nation it once was. And the God
Learners, as a cooperative mercantile consensus state, wasn't the
hardest of all empires to throw off.
>them twenty years to do so.
Dara Happa has long been an adherent of the idea that the
ancients were stronger than the moderns. This would merely reinforce
this attitude.
>what it did for him! He never even got as far as Alkoth in all his
>wars!
Yup. See how much better the real EWF was? He only had some
of their "brute force magics" as you put it, not the philosophy and
structure.
>>DARK EMPIRE: The place was ruled by Trolls!
>>Wasn't it you who stated that Trolls could be viewed as creatures
>>of the Id. Thus most of their culture could be viewed as
>>instinctive?
Much of their culture is instinctive. This means that the
remainder of troll culture is very delicately balanced indeed. Troll
politics are and have always been far more complicated than human,
and troll plottings and secrets have always been deeper and
longer-thinking than human ones.
If we rate the Dark Empire as a troll empire, than we can
state that it was certainly the most highly-cultured troll empire
that ever was, however it rated compared to a human one.
>>ELF EMPIRE: A continent spanning empire based on simple mind
>control does not imply higher culture whether you mean advanced
>technology or higher social sophistication
Okay, what does? The elves under Errinoru made a true
fleet, and visited the corners of the world. Not seen before or
since.
The elves under Errinoru began a massive project of
replanting the Jolar barrenlands -- this was not just big in size,
but required a lot of magical, spiritual, social, and political
dexterity. Not seen before or since.
The elves under Errinoru set up a social system that
enabled future groups of elves to be able to deal with humans on a
political/social basis -- to make treaties and alliances and follow
them. This was previously unknown, and is still not a feature of
Genertelan elves, who make only private bargains. Admittedly, the
elves to follow the Errinoru empire took advantage of this
innovation, but this does demonstrate the inventive nature of
Errinoru's approach to other cultures.
>>GOD LEARNER SESHNELA: Nor am I persuaded that the lot of the
>>God Learner farmer was much changed (ie they were mostly serfs
>>rather than free farmers/Kulaks).
> Sez who? The God Learners used automatons, mandrakes,
>homunculi, and other constructs to perform dull everyday tasks.
>>And every single farm had these marvellous contraptions?
Correct, at least IMO, and in their central lands.
>Given that in the RW not every farm has a tractor (the nearest
>analog I can think of), I am skeptical of the idea that this was
>standard equipment.
Every farm in the USA certainly has one.
>Sandy also mentioned the development of Industry. This seems to
have >been the preserve of the Zistorites. I do not believe
Seshnela, >Jrustela and Umathela were similarly affected.
None so blind as those who have a preconceived thesis.
>The six legged Empire worshipped Ompalam.
>It seems to me that the Empire was based on Coercion. Simply
Not solely.
saying >'Might is Right' does not auger well for a society's social
>sophistication
Saying Might Makes Right makes a society evil, not
unsophisticated and crude. Higher culture and moral culture have
nothing in common. Shaka's Zulus were more highly cultured than the
tribes he overran, but 'twas still a malign empire. Stalinist Russia
was certainly better-educated and more advanced than the Tsarist
serf-state, but in evil it equalled or (IMO) surpassed the former.
Yes, the Six-Leggers were evil, and yes they suppressed
opposition (though not for those who accepted their way), but
nonetheless they were an advanced state, though doubtless the least
pleasant of all the Second Age Empires.
>Modern Doraddi society is considerably more sophisticated than the
>Six Legged Empire given that they are forced to talk/argue/fight
>about things and create positions of Social Responsibility to deal
>with such things
Fine. Then by this logic I acquiesce that the Second Age
was not more sophisticated than the Third. Just as troll society is
far more sophisticated than human.
But the Second Age tended to have higher technology, better
education, more powerful magic, more complex philosophies, and much
larger social structures than the Third.
Sandy P.
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