Lunar Fantasies in the Fourth Age

From: Philippe Krait (
Date: Thu 01 Feb 1996 - 04:17:39 EET

Nick Brooke wrote:

> David Cake mentioned my theory that "Argrath's Saga" describes the ultimate
> triumph of the Lunar Way.

First I would like to say that I did not hear Greg's speech so, unless
someone summarize it here, I will not take arguments from that source.

All I have to go by is what has been published and my personnal
understanding of what entropy and Chaos are...

It was very pleasant to re-read all the citations you collected in your
vain try to deform the only truth there is: the Red Moon and the Lunar
Empire are no more. How can the "Lunar way" have survived, when all
that survives is a pitiful philosophy absolutely unsupported by any
physical or magical fact ? Could you precisely define the Lunar Way ?
The civilization itself did not survive, neither did its religions or
philosophies. So what is it that did survive ?

[Interesting Ceremonial Utuma conclusions deleted]

I have no doubt that, in the end, the Red Goddess was "fully integrated
into the world". But if she was as integrated as Kajabor in Arachne
Solara's net, she will be exactly as powerless. How can you call that a
victory for the conquering being she was during the Lunar expansion ?

As for the explanation of the integration, did you read my posts about
the nature of chaos (Wakboth) and entropy (Kajabor) ? Of course, she

had to be integrated to prevent further dammage, as chaos and entropy
are flux that can only go one way. But, in integrating it, you also
neutralize it (at least for a Time), which is what happened. The
troubling parrallel is that the Lunar Goddess, already illuminated,
went from the active stage into the passive one, which is a form a
wisdom. Because she went from a world destroying form (letting chaos
and entropy enter the world, an irreversible process) to a
contemplative one, absolutely harmless.

> So the Orlanthi defeat Chaos by making an entropic god into the omnipotent
> ruling deity of the Cosmos, eh?

Where did you get to this conclusion ? Kajabor was never transformed
into time. Arachne Solara had to understand its nature and see that he

could not be cast out of creation (the second law of thermodynamics
seems to be part of Glorantha), so she devoured it. Time was born as
the sole agent capable of controlling entropy, by spreading it over the

cosmos. I do not count this as a victory for Kajabor (who is truly too
mindless to care, anyway). He could not be destroyed, but is well under
control. It is true that he will eventually win, as he is invincible
(as decreted by the second law), but is not every breath a Gloranthan
takes now tanks to time a great victory ?

> And in the Third Age they defeat the Red Goddess
> in a suspiciously set-up manner: the Lunars planned it; the inscrutable,
> unfathomable Dragons executed it; and even one of the versions of Argrath's Saga
> ends its account of the destruction of the Red Moon, "But it's still here! And
> now it's invisible instead!"

What ? The Lunars planned it ? Why did they fight like cornered rats to
prevent it, then ?

The Dragons executed it: yes, but remember that, for them, time runs
backwards. They want to go (back for us, forward for them) to the

perfection of the One Egg. When they dismembered the Goddess, they in
fact assembled her out of all the diffuse chaos in the 4rth age world.
They separated the bad stuff from the good one ("separer le bon grain
de l'ivraie) for _their_ future (our past).

And see below for the "invisible" theory...

> "It was destroyed, but only in form. Although the physical body of the
> Red Goddess was destroyed, the spirit is eternal and lives on. In fact, say
> Lunar thinkers, such was planned. The goddess simply went the next step in her
> divine liberating style. I myself favour [this explanation], of course, since
> the world certainly seems worse of late than it was in the old stories, without
> any silly old moon in the sky to make it worse."

Of course, the spirit is eternal. Even Gods destroyed in the War of
Chaos still live in the God Plane. The Red Goddess already existed in a
different form in the God Time, but something happened to her and she
disappeared. But the spirit was still there, and it took many
heroquests to bring her back in a physical form. But that was a great
mistake, because it was in defiance of time, and she was reborn with
forbidden chaos powers, which everybody but her considers as world
destroying. It took her removal from the physical Plane and transport
to the God Plane of legends to make things right. Maybe she was
willing, maybe the true spirit was in fact a prisonner from the chaos
power needed to bring her back. I can allow for the fact that, becoming
a contemplative illuminate is for her a victory of wisdom over folly,
but for her only. How can you say that the Lunar way survives ? Saying
it that way is truly misinformation.

As for the Goddess going through her "divine liberating style", she was
liberated. But what about all the beings who followed her Red Stage and
were therefore damend to Hell ? Were they liberated ? I think not...

Nick also quotes the pro-lunar manuscript:

> "So they say. But it's still here! And now it's invisible instead!"

This sounds to me only as the pathetic rambling of someone who has lost
everything and who desperetly tries to retain a grip on the past. Let

me rephrase that sentence:

"Nobody can see it and it's powerless, but I can swear it still exists !..."

Standard answer:

"there, there, gran-pa, you should stop drinking now, and go to bed.
Yes, that way,..."

Turning to the assistance:

"He's just an old sentimentalist fool, but completely harmless. Never
could get over the death of the lunar empire, you know, that's truly


  /___ _________ ___/\ ***************************************
  \__/ /\_______/ /\__\/ * Philippe Krait *
    / /_/__ / / / * *
   /____ /\ / / / * *
   \___/ / / / / / * "And I, of course, am innocent of *
  ____/ / / /_/ / * all but malice." - Fiona / RZ - *
 /_____/ / \_\/ * *
 \_____\/ ***************************************


End of Glorantha Digest V2 #352

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