Outrageaou Lunar Assertions 1/4

From: Philippe Krait (pkrait@micronet.fr)
Date: Sat 03 Feb 1996 - 21:38:33 EET


It seems to me that I am alone here against a huge horde of Lunar
fanatics. Well, I will still try to fight to liberate them from the
deceptions their illlusion-weaving _Red-moon_ goddess has weaved before
their eyes.

I must make excuses in advance, because if some responses were very
civil, some of them were downright incivil (read insulting). So I will
try not to respond in kind, but...

I know this is a subject that sparks passion, but be careful, OK ? If
you post something here and expect every body to fall to their knees
and worship you and your responses, I don't think I will argue much
longuer. It is a game, foremost, go read the "Great God Learner
Secret", put your head in a cool bucket, and come back only then.

I will start by saying that I was genuinely impressed by the references
collected by Nick D., and that they sparked a lot of neat ideas. Of course
I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, and this is what I discuss
below. The only sad thing is his tone, which I don't like much...

David Cake:

> The first and most outrageous theory is that Argrath, at the end of
>King of Sartar, is deliberately helping the Red Goddess when he tears the
>Red Moon from the sky.

Even from an Orlanthi point of view, this makes perfect sense, only not
with the _Red_ Goddess, but with the _Moon_ Goddess:

1) The Goddess was already alive during the God Time.

2) A terrible fate befell her and she disappeared.

3) She was not Resurrected / Revived / Reconstructed before time was

4) She was reborn as a Goddess during Time. This violated the cosmic
principle of the Great Compromise, as it allowed her to exist as a God
outside of the God Plane. It was a thing of Chaos, the only force
powerful enought to defeat entropy (Wakboth was the only one who could
slay Kajabor).

5) The essence of the Moon Goddess was trapped on the Physical / Hero
Plane, emprisonned by the Chaos forces necessary to keep her there.
This is apparent in what she did when she ascended into the sky. TO
reach the Hero Plane on a "permanent" basis, She had to wrap herself in
part of her mother GLorantha, ripping the earth with chaos power,
sealing herself into a gangue of Chaos. This conglomerate is what was
known as the Red Godess, an ambivalent "Deity", whose chaotic side
greatly damaged the fabric of Glorantha itself.

6) SO what Argrath did made perfect sense. He believed in the
emprisonnment of the Moon Goddess, and in the damage the Chaos she used
was doing to the universe. So heconvinced the dragons to dismember the
Chaos gangue, and freed the Moon-Goddess (not the Red Goddess, only the
divine part of her self) so that she could ascend into the God Plane.

This is not only an act of kindness toward somebody trapped by Chaos,
but also the only way to "remove" the taint of chaos that the presence
of the Red-Moon was imposing upon the Physical and Hero Planes. So I
conclude that Argrath was truly helping the _Moon Goddess_ by tearing
the _Red Moon_ from the sky.

Now, when I think about the Goddess, and the influence she could have
had upon Argrath, I think that the Ambivalence of the Moon-Chaos
Goddess may well have played a great part here.

Think about the exorcist, as an example: When you listen carfully, you
can hear the pitiful small voice of the trapped Moon-Goddess saying:
"Please help me, Chaos is devouring me, II never asked for this, I'm
Trapped, please, plea...". And then, as the Red Moon turns, an enormous

cruel and seductive voice takes over: "ease,... HA HA HA, come to me,
my little tasty morcel, I will show you the power of Chaos, I will
illuminate you and devour you and your world, and you will be happy, HA
! HA ! HA !".

I choose to view Argrath as the hero of the Exorcist, one who can
ignore the evil and chaotic side, and hear the voice of the child. One
who chooses to free her by destroying the demon rather than
annihilating the whole of it. This is how Argrath surprises everybody
when he tears down the Red Moon, because eh can hear the voice of the
child when nobody else can.

> Nick already believes that there is enough evidence within KOS to
>conclude that the Lunars win. Greg believes that you could conclude that as
>well. A key part of this is the final frantic statement at the end of
>Argraths saga, about how the Moon is still there but now is invisible.

I agree with you that the _Moon Goddess_ wins, helped by Argrath, but
the Red Moon is no more, and the Empire is only ashes. Saying that the
Lunar wins is only fanatic propaganda.

You will also notice that nothing above contradicts the "invisible"
statement. The Moon Goddess is now part of the God Plane, as bound
there and powerless as the other gods, invisible to all.

Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz>

> But then how do we fit in the White Orbiter (mentioned in the Zin Letters)
> and the fact that the Lunars have said the Moon is going to become White?

This is one of the great inconsistencies in the pro-lunar theory.
Shouldn't they first agree about what the moon looks like: white or
invisible ?

You will also notice that there is great controversy among the third
age Lunars about the meaning of the white moon. If I remember
correctly, some mean it as the symbol of eternal peace, that of the
dead. It could be interpreted as the death of the Lunars themselves, as
the "death" of their goddess.

Moreover, you can very well make end-of-the-world prophecies that become true.
The fact that the Lunars prophecied that the Moon was to turn white is not
necessarily a sign that:

a) They want it to happen

b) They will plan for it to happen

c) they will be happy with the result

Some Lunar philosophers may interpret it as a necessary change that will require
a lot of bloodshed to happen. But that also means that their present state is
unsatisfying (empire, red moon and all).

David Cake again:

> There are numerous good Lunar versions of the situation after the
> Red Moon, though. Perhaps most people simply do not have sufficient purity
> of vision. Or do not know where to look (perhaps the Moon has risen beyond
> the Sky?). Perhaps she is now complete enough to regain the Blue Moon powers
> of secrecy and invisibility. Or even better, as the Goddess now has as her
> personal domain not simply a chunk of rock floating above Peloria, but the
> entire universe, of course you can't see it, as you are inside. I'm sure
> they can talk their way out of a minor glitch like the Moon not being visible.

Yes, that's all they can do, try to _talk_ their way out of incoherence

Interesting position, eh ? (:-)

[Argrath and Sheng]
> Well, umm, yes. Not the brightest act in retrospect. But then again,
> things were very very grim when the quest was performed. Little point in
> bringing back Air powers to be defeated again. Is there anyone else who has
> managed to trash the Lunar Empire so sucessfully?

Truly, Argrath could not call upon Air Powers again. If you remember
the above, it is interesting to note how great the power of the Red
Moon was on the Physical and Hero Planes, being there in person instead
of trapped on the God Plane like Orlanth (by his own choice during the
Compromise). So Argrath decided to fight her with "terrestrial" weapons
and resurrected Sheng.

In retrospect, even he thinks it was a mistake. You cannot fight
destruction with destruction of a different kind. It is still
destruction who wins, eventually. But he had the wisdom (and the
strength) to admit he was wrong, correct his mistake, and eventually
find a new solution to the Red Moon problem.

Because he could learn from his first mistake, he choose not to fight
the Monster armies (destruction vs destruction again), but choose
instead to dismember the red-moon, freeing the moon goddess in an act
of compassion. Is this not the mark of a true hero ?

[Argrath Culpability]
> >Apropos of Argrath's cupability, I think he doesn't know what he's
> >doing.
> >
> I think he has some idea. But not as much as he thinks he does.
> Similar to the Seven Mothers, who thought they knew what they were
> doing, but got a real surprise.

Yes, I think the Seven Mothers were truly surprised by the result, and
were consumed by the final transformation from red-moon to simply moon.
They were mortals after all (born after time), and could not ascend to
the God Plane like the Goddess did. Were they what was dismembered by
the dragons, or did they suffer another terrible fate ?

Nick Brooke:
> It depends on what you understand the 'final frantic statement' to have been
> saying. Off the cuff, the explanation could be any of:
> 1) The Lunar Goddess is still there, although she is now invisible.
> The statement doesn't refer to the Moon, only the Goddess.

I would follow you here. The white moon exists as a physical body, but
the goddess has now been restored to her place in the God Plane. She is
therefore as invisible as the other gods

> 2) The 'point of balance' which held the physical Red Moon is still
> there (above the Crater), even though the Red Moon was knocked out
> of it (possibly turning into or replaced by the White Orbiter).

That could be true, but I would think that the white moon (if it
exists) moves quite differently. For example, in a similar fashion as
our Earth, if you see what I mean, though I have no proof.

> 3) The White Orbiter is *not* the White Moon, but despite this the Moon
> is "still there" in either of the above senses.

Why would anyone speak of a white moon that is not the white moon
everybody sees ?

> 4) The authors of the Northern Colophon and the Zin Letters were both
> barking up the same, incorrect tree.

This means that the moon did not survive, does it ? (;-). And remember
that when YOU cite them as references in the future...

> I'm only speculating about how it "could have been", hoping to show that a Lunar
> victory is not incompatible with the events described in King of Sartar. Once
> you recognise that the Lunar Way is separable from the Lunar Empire, this
> becomes a lot easier. This seems to me a better line of approach than writing an
> alternate history where the Lunar Empire overtly "wins" the Hero Wars.

What you are showing (and I agree with you here) is that a _Moon
Goddess victory_ is not incompatible. Being freed from Entropy, Death
and Chaos to be reborn in the God Plane is a great victory indeed. But
she did not achieve this victory alone... She was helped by Argrath,
and all her mundane work was undone.

Maybe you thought that my previous comment on the pleasure I had in
reading your citations was sarcastic. I assure you it was not. But what
I don't like (and you seem to agree here) is the statement that the
_lunar Empire_ won. Your first statement was much too ambiguous: you
should be careful when you speak about a Lunar victory, especially when
you taunt Orlanthi in the way you did (see more about this later).

> Do you suppose Sheng's "Shadowmoon Empire" directed worship to the Red Moon in
> her Dark Phase, emphasising the "downside" of the Lunar Way for the profit of
> the rulers, while simultaneously wounding Yara Aranis, anathema to horse nomads
> (and associated with the Full Moon Phase via the Glowline)?

The idea has a certain appeal.

> > Apropos of Argrath's culpability, I think he doesn't know what he's
> > doing.

[Delete Delirium about the Lunar Goddess shaping Argrath]

Remember what you wrote here when you accuse me of Orlanthi propaganda.
Not only does your text spell propaganda, but it is even written like
some I've seen.


End of Glorantha Digest V2 #363

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