From: Philippe Krait (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sat 03 Feb 1996 - 21:38:33 EET
me about seeking a weapon to do it. The Red Goddess was able to rip a
part of her "mother" to cloak herself. All she had to do was to release
that, to do it herself as the Great Dragon did it, by himself.
What it proves is that the Goddess was trapped by the Chaos used to
bring herself back to the Hero Plane, and that she could not release
herself. Of course, she is glad to be released in that way by an
uncontrallable external source, of course this is a victory for her,
but it is the sign that the world needed Argrath to free it from _all_
the gods and their destroying power. First there was the unholy trio,
then the Goddess. Notice who this places the Red Goddess with ? Good
references , indeed...
> > First I would like to say that I did not hear Greg's speech so, unless
> > someone summarize it here, I will not take arguments from that source.
> There were none: I never alluded to or relied on any. My argument is
> self-generated and self-contained. But never mind: believe what you want, if it
> makes you happier.
This was not directed to you but toward some of your supporters (see
above). And it still stands.
> > If [the Red Goddess] was as integrated as Kajabor in Arachne Solara's
> > net, she will be exactly as powerless.
> Kajabor is not in Arachne Solara's net. His chaotic, entropic essence entered
> Arachne Solara's womb, and fathered Time upon her (at her instigation). Time is
> almost universally acknowledged as the omnipotent, ruling deity throughout the
> Ages of History. You call that "powerless"? Read the sources, mate.
I read the source, and I find no indication of "fatherhood" as you
imply it. What I see is a child, Time, capable of ruling Entropy
instead of letting it run wild as Kajabor was. This is control over
entropy, brought by Arachne Solara.
Kajabor IS powerless in the grip of dimension (Arachne Solara) and
Time. Entropy seeps into the world to destroy it slowly, as Kajabor
slowly escapes. But this is the great victory of the Compromise: the
world could continue to exist instead of being destroyed, as long as
Time could control Entropy. This is why Time is acclaimed as the
omnipotent deity you speak of, not Kajabor itself. Now tell me about
the universal worship of Kajabor, if you dare.
In the same kind of idea, the Chaotic part of the Goddess could be seen
as being jugulated by her expulsion into the God Plane. Her "physical"
and chaotic body (the Red Moon) being destroyed, she has been jugulated
(as the other gods were). I do not deny that the spirit of the white
moon may have survived (see the beginning of this post). But Chaos has
been vanquished, even if, as Entropy, he can never be forever banished,
being part of the world.
> > As for the explanation of the integration, did you read my posts about
> > the nature of chaos (Wakboth) and entropy (Kajabor)?
> I must have missed them. Were they at all interesting, or were they just some
> more tosh about the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
I will summarize the theory: At the beginning, the world was clearly
extracted from Chaos. But it was threatened by two major phenomenas:
Chaos itself, who wanted to reclaim part of himself and irreversibility
(I will call it that way, because you seem allergic to Thermodynamics,
still very useful when you talk about energy / Matter). I think that
the first part is quite clear. About the second, as you consider that
on Glorantha some actions are reversible (like casting a spell), you
will also find that other ar not: there is no way the Power fueled into
an enchantment can be recovered.
When you complexify, you burn energy (power). But there is no
"un-creation". The process is crearly irreversible. When Glorantha was
created, it contained a certain amount of power: the runes. This power
was used to define the world, to separate it from Chaos. Now theses
runes were used (and abused), and the Universe grew in complexity. But
the initial power and purity of the Runes were lost.
As the gods appeared, and then the elder races, Complexity grew, but
power diminished (this is evident).
But when the universe was weakened by the Gods War, the principles
incarnated themselves into the two "devils": Chaos and Entropy. Entropy
is truly invincible in a closed system. The key point is that Glorantha
is not a closed system, because there is always the inexhaustible
energy of Chaos all around it.
But Chaos is corrupting in its own way: Once you let it in, its taint
can never be removed.
Consider the "Kajabor (Entropy) vs Wakboth (Chaos)" duel: Nobody inside
Glorantha (bound by its very power limitations) could vanquish Kajabor.
Only Wakboth, with its Chaos powers, could do that. And this is what
happened. Once _slain_ Kajabor could be overcome and _devoured_ by
The conclusion was this: You could fight Entropy, but only by letting
Chaos into the world, which is also ultimately destroying it in another
> >> So the Orlanthi defeat Chaos by making an entropic god into the omni-
> >> potent ruling deity of the Cosmos, eh?
> > Where did you get to this conclusion? Kajabor was never transformed
> > into time.
> I never got to your conclusion. Kajabor is the Father of Time; Time is thus (by
> reason of paternity) an entropic god. I recall a old source mentioning Time as
> "the synthesis of Entropy and Existence," a reference which you may not have
> noticed or understood.
Give me the reference about Kajabor being the _father_ of time. This is
not the same thing as Time being a Synthesis of Entropy and Existence,
which I don't deny, as he was made to _control_ Entropy. And yes, that
is a noble means of action, preventing the world to be destroyed. It
seems that there was no other solution. By the way, Does not the word
Synthesis psakr something different from a father-son ritual ?
Moreover, this was not only an Orlanthi decision, but also that of
_every_ being in Glorantha, or do you choose to forget the "I fought,
We Won" ? Finally, you do Orlanth a great favor in making Arachne
Solara, the instigator of the birth of Time, subservient to him. Even I
would not have gone so far (;-).
> > Time was born as the sole agent capable of controlling entropy, by
> > spreading it over the cosmos.
> If we accept this, in my parallel, "spreading Lunarism over the cosmos" is not a
> victory for Lunarism? This is a most remarkable form of logic you have resorted
> to, M. Krait.
No, because if you say that, you say that Lunarism is Chaos. Because
this is what was vanquished, not the moon itself (as I think you will
And I said "spreading it so that it will be controlled", Mister
specious arguments. Don't read half of the sentences, picking only
what you choose, this is a very bas habit. If you follow the parallel
through, it will not be the Red Goddess, that is spread, but the vile
part in herself.
Kajabor was vanquished, the Red Goddess was vanquished. Kajabor's
essence, in itself undefeatable, was spread by Time so that the world
could live. Now I wait for you to give me the equivalent of Time in the
Red Goddess case. Where is it mentionned ? And don't bother telling me
it's the White Moon, which nobody acclaims, with nobody being even sure
The only result is: the Gods are now unattaignable, every one of them
including the moon goddess. This is in fact a defeat for the entire
world. But this defeat was brought by the resurrection of the Red
Goddess, and the Chaos it brought. Notice that I don't even say she (as
the Moon Goddess) is responsible. I only think she was trapped, either
by mistake (of the Seven Mothers) or as the result of a great cosmic
conspiration. But I guess that you will not like this idea either,
because it makes her just a tool.
> > What? The Lunars planned it? Why did they fight like cornered rats to
> > prevent it, then?
> Sez who? Their enemies??
Says every body who read KOS. They went all the more ferocious when
they were threatened and had no place to run (see the Monster Empire
and its last creations, for example). Is that not the way cornered rats
> The leaders of the Lunar Empire knew that it would
> inevitably be transcended by the triumph of the Lunar Way;
Not every body agrees with you here, see above. I certainly don't.
> it was therefore
> their duty to resist to the utmost any movement which attempted to sweep away
> the Empire -- because, when the time was right, it would be impossible for them
> to resist the *inevitable* change, even with their best efforts.
I don't follow your reasons here. They wanted to resist because they
knew something inevitable was coming ? If it was inevitable, why did
they fight ?
> Put it another way: if you think the Messiah will come again, do you believe the
> first person to say that it's him, or do you demand extreme proofs before
> accepting him? Safer, surely, to err on the side of caution.
I don't deny that some misguided fools could consider her the Messiah.
But, as I've said above, they were fools to worship something that
caused their death, as the Empire and the Red Moon are now only ashes.
They were fanatics, ready to die, but that does not make them great in
my mind. I much prefer Argrath's point of view, who was capable of
learning and of understanding the true plight of the Moon Goddess,
trapped by her unvoluntary resurrection in a shell she abhorred. Like
the Frankenstein Monster, for example.
> And nobody said it would be easy to save the world. You wanted an effortless
> Lunar triumph? Your dead gods deserved you.
No, it was very difficult to save the world, for Argrath, as his saga
implies. The Red Goddess did not save the world in any way, quite the
opposite in fact. She threatened to destroy it, that is what she did.
As for the gods, they are no more dead than yours. There is no more
proof of Lunar interaction in the 4th age than from any other god.
And neither are dead, poor man, as they will always live in the God
Plane and in our legends, and therefore in our hearts.
> > The Dragons executed it: yes, but remember that, for them, time runs
> > backwards.
> That old chestnut again? Please remember, nobody in Glorantha understands what
> the Dragons (or Dragonewts) are doing, or why they are doing it, by definition.
> Any theory based on "what the Dragons are trying to do" is ipso facto wrong.
> This one included.
I will point out that you were the first to use draconic arguments,
with your "Ceremonial Utuma". So look at your reasonment first, and let
all Utuma things drop, as they are draconic and therefore not
understandable. See where your argument leads you ? Yes, you're right,
nowhere. So be a good boy and stay there, OK... (:-)
> Poor benighted Orlanthi. Can't get over the fact that his gods have gone, while
> Our Goddess is still out there (albeit invisible). Never mind...
Worst case of delusion I've ever seen. He believes but he has not even
> > As for the Goddess going through her "divine liberating style", she was
a single bit of proof. Faith, that's what I call that, not logical
> > were therefore damned to Hell? Were they liberated? I think not...
> Mere frothing propaganda. I will not dignify it with an answer.
> > As for the Goddess going through her "divine liberating style", she was
Yes, because you have none...
> >> "So they say. But it's still here! And now it's invisible
> > This sounds to me only as the pathetic rambling of someone who has lost
> > everything and who desperetly tries to retain a grip on the past.
> You mean you identify with it? ;-)
Curious, you cut just the part where I talked specifically about the
rambling themselves, like seeing a moon where there is none.
> It sounds to me like bona fide evidence from the Fourth Age. The author of the
> Northern Colophon believed the Moon had survived Argrath; Zin believed the Moon
> survived Argrath. But our Philippe doesn't. Ho hum: I know who I'd rather
Did you read what I said just before ? Let me point you (I repeat but
it seems necessary with you):
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