Re: Pharandros's birthdate

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Fri 23 Feb 1996 - 02:13:00 EET

Peter Metcalfe
>In his thesis about Moraides reign, Joerg refers to something that I
>haven't tackled him on yet. He has been dating Pharandros's birth to
>1602 ST for reasons unknown.

Have I? I just said that 1582 would mean that my current candidate for his
mother, Harsta Vostorsdotter, was born in 1568. If Pharandros was born in
1582, he would have to have been conceived in 1581, at Harsta's age 13. This
would be early even for medieval standards.

>>(compare Wyrm's Footnotes 12 - I find it highly
>>unlikely that Pharandros would marry a woman at least 14 years his elder)

>I presume this is under the new date of birth for Pharandros. However
>if Pharandros was born in 1582, we wouldn't have this problem. Unless
>there's something in WF12 (I don't have the text) that makes this

Not impossible, but unlikely.

WF 12 tells about Fazzur's father:
"Vostos' last child, a daughter, was born in 1568 and was named Harsta. She
was proud and haughty noblewoman, and wed the second son of King
Phargentes." and "During the 1613 rebellion in Sartar, the commander there
proved himself a drunkard and incompetent in his handling the situation.
Fazzur petitioned his brother-in-law, now the King of Tarsh, for command of
the relieving troops."

Thus, if the "second son of Phargentes" was Pharandros (WF 12 is a bit
uncertain about the Tarshite king names), and was born in 1582, Harsta would
have been 14 years his elder. If Pharandros, as I tend to think, was born a
couple of years after Grizzly Peak (say around 1585), the age difference
would be a full generation, and make the identification of Harsta as
Moirades' wife more likely.

(I note that this text _does_ indicate a change of rulers in the meantime,
but this seems to have been overridden by the Genertela Box, and the
Sartarite sources.)

>>There is only the unluckily placed "date" of Moirades' death in the Tarsh
>>king list, and the birth year of Pharandros calculated from that, indicating
>>at this course of events.

>Umm? Pharandros's birth is dated as occuring shortly after his father's
>ascension as King of Tarsh, not his date of his father's death!

IMO the number "became king at age 28" is the source for dating his birth to
1582, based on the alleged death year of 1610 for Moirades. I'd date
Pharandros return from his education in Glamour to around 1614. This may
have been the start of his co-regency (Yarandros seems to have been de facto
co-ruler of his father Ovartien as well).

>>My current impression is that Pharandros and Estal Donge are the children of
>>Moirades and Harsta Vostosdotter, Fazzur's sister. Since her birth-date is
>>given as 1568, I have the impression that 1582 is a little bit early for
>>Pharandros' birth, though Lunar standards may vary. (Source: Wyrms Footnotes
>>#12, p.16)

>Could you please spell out what is causing your problem? You seem
>to be radically changing the date of Pharandros's birth on the grounds
>that Moraides is unlikely to have married a fourteen year old girl
>(which is not unusal in the middle ages BTW).

I am having second thoughts about Moirades' impregnating of a 13 year old,
i.e. hardly initiated into the rites of the women's cult. Remember that
Gloranthan years are shorter than Terran years, thus a 13-year-old
Gloranthan is roughly the biological equivalent to a 9-year-old Terran.

While the shorter year has the advantage of letting us use familiar age
ranges for the Gloranthan denizens (a venerated 60-year-old Gloranthan elder
would be a 48-year-old Terran from the Dark Ages, IMO a good parallel), it
doesn't really allow for shortened childhoods unless in heroic cases (Hon-eel).


End of Glorantha Digest V2 #401

RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark
of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material,
unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the
author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to
excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for
electronic retrieval.

Send electronic mail to with "help"
in the body of the message for subscription information on this and
other mailing lists.

WWW material at

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 16:29:39 EEST