Zorak and other ramblings

From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Fri 23 Feb 1996 - 02:38:40 EET


David Cake:
===========

> But when it comes down to it, ZZ is a god of Death, not the God of
>the Dead. Being God of the Dead is about ruling the Underworld, not at all
>about killing people (everyone dies in the end anyway, why bother hurrying
>it). I see the two roles as quite distinct, and I see ZZ and Monster Man
>both fitting clearly into the two different roles. ZZ seems almost entirely

>a surface world god, who kills people and sends them to the underworld.
>Monster Man seems almost entirely an Underworld God.

I think this distinction is quite pedantic. ZZ lives in a fortress in
Hell and his worshippers claim they go there after they die to join his
legions of Death. He does rule the underworld, it's just that ZZ is more
prominent to his worshippers minds as a War God having been brought to
the Surface when the Trolls arrived IMO. Look at Drospoly, Wacahaza or
Gorgorma for other examples of Hell Dwelling Dieties that are found as
War Gods (sometimes).

> To put it one way, I think ZZ Esrolian earth pantheon counterpart
>would be Maran Gor or Babeester Gor. But I think Monster Mans earth
>pantheon counterpart is Ty Kora Tek.

That's how they are now. But Maran Gor originally was a pleasant diety
before she changed into a murderous one. I'm saying that ZZ underwent
a change of focus from Underworld Diety to Uz War God which is a shift
of a lesser magnitude.

David Dunham:
=============

>Deshkorgos and Derdromus are both called Monster Man; I'm not convinced
>that all gods who have this title are necessarily the same, given how
>generic it is.

I really see the Monster Man Cults as one of those pre Lodril Earth
cults who were forced into the Dark Places by the appearance of a
Lodrilite Hero (with the beginning of volcanic activity in the area).

I don't believe that they are all the same but that they performed
similar practices in their regions having been part of the Old
Genertelan Earth Religion that predated the coming of Lodril and
other Sky Gods. The Three Eyes of Deshkorgos combined with the Three
Eyes and other features of Zorak Zoran (non Troll) suggest to me that
the position was one of a cthonic cave-dwelling shaman.

Over time, such cults have been fused over time into a common cult
of Monster Man just like Perakosus, Blows from Within and Lotralas
have all been subsumed into a Pelorian Lodril Cult. [Not by government
sanction, but as the cultural horizons of the peasants spread beginning
with the peace and prosperity of the Khordavu Dynasty, the amount of
differences between the many forms of Lodril were reduced but have
not vanished completely).

>Still, it does seem to be applied to bad gods who live
>underground. But I see no evidence that trolls are at all related --
>there's only one mention of digijelm living underground, and
>Zorak Zoran is referred to as the Cruel God, in distinction to Monster
>Man.

I don't think the Cruel God was Zorak Zoran, even though Modern Myth
says he is anymore than I think Rebellus Terminus is Orlanth. And
the Digijelm argument is slightly irrelevant as I said IMO that ZZ
was from Esrolia.

Jeff Richard:
=============

>Right now I am toying with the idea that when Hon-Eel gained the
>allegiance of the Orlanthi of Sylilia and Saird, she introduced
>Red Goddess worship into the ruling clan's worship ceremonies
>WITHOUT suppressing the Cult of Orlanth and without forcing a
>neo-Dara Happan myth-language into the Red Goddess cult. I believe
>this was done by "translating" Red Goddess mysticism into the Orlanthi
>"myth-language" instead of the modern (post-Sheng) Lunar approach of
>forcing a neo-Dara Happan translation of the Orlanthi "myth-language"
>on the conquered tribes.

I presume you mean Hwarin Dalthippa (Hon-eel is post Sheng) here.

I don't think Lunar Mysticism can be 'translated' into Orlanthi anymore
than Illumination can be translated onto a piece of paper. If you are
importing a new concept, you tend to import new jargon that goes along
with it (frex, when alcohol was isolated during the 12th Century CE,
the west generally applied the arabic name to the substance because
the knowlege of distilling it had come from them rather than apply any
number of decent names for booze they had).

The Storm Worshippers of Saird have myths of a peaceful era before
the Emperor spoiled it and that was Hwarin appealed to IMO. The
Lunars policy of trying to replace the worship of Orlanth with
Molanni is an example of this. Of course it doesn't work in the
Highlands because they know Molanni dimly as a traitor and have no
direct contact with her. Thus they have to be crushed like the
barbarian scum they are. [Lunar Blinkers on].

>The Isles: Not "Orlanthi". I think the Islanders are outside of the
>parameters of Over-Cult and are true foreigners. To be honest, I
>suspect that their native tongue is non-Theyalan.

This is the Ygg's Isle, Three Steps and Ginorth folk? Or the Rightarm
Islanders?

>Caladraland: Probably "Orlanthi". Yep, I think they are within the
>parameters. They know the Greeting, the probably have a legal system
>recognizable as being "Heort's Laws", and they acknowledge Orlanth and
>Ernalda. They just don't find the Big O to be terribly relevant. BTW, I
>do not believe that the "Lodril" of Caladraland is recognizable as the
>"Lodril" of Peloria, except by a God Learner. However, I'm willing to
>toy around with other options.

I don't think the Caladralanders qualify as Orlanthi. The clan laws
have been modified by the God Learners under the guise of the Volcano
Twins. They do speak a related language but this does not mean that
their myth-language (paradigm is what I use) is the same as the Orlanthi
anymore than the myth-language of the Muslim Indian is the same as
that of the Hindu.

I do agree that the Esrolian Lodril Cult is markedly different to the
Pelorian Lodril in rites.

- --Peter Metcalfe

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