From: Carlson, Pam (carlsonp@wdni.com)
Date: Tue 16 Jul 1996 - 01:10:00 EEST
Nick E - liked the ZZ heroquest! Thanks.
------------------------------
Trying to keep the Yelm debate sort-of short:
> 'The Dara Happans often consider themselves the rulers and the
Pelorians the followers, pointing out that the _city_ _dwellers_
worship Yelm, the ruling god, while the Pelorians worship
Lodril,
Dendara, Eiritha, and other inferior dieties'.
Sorry, but if the Genertela book implies than Yelm is only worshipped in
the cities, I don't buy it. Yelm is a bigtime fertility deity. What's
he gonna grow in the city - bricks? I prefer to extrapoplate from the
rich detail of the latest 3 Pelorian sources (GRoy, FS, Entekosiad).
I 'spose you could interpret it that everyone and their dog in the
There was also a mention in the Entekosiad of the Dendara cult in 1300,
cities is a Yelmie, but it doesn't go very well with what we've learned
from the Pelorian sources. Even in the later parts of the FS, (1500 or
so), the Yelmies who wanted the new emperor to undertake the ten tests
all seemed to be from noble families. They then had to stake their own
right to worship Yelm (ie, status), and that of their entire family on
the outcome of the emperor's trials. The emperor is said to have
removed whole families and _clans_ that way.
trying to remain exlusively a noble-woman's cult. It was apparently
opened up by the Lunars. (But no mention was made of that happening
with the Yelm cult.)
>The only requirement of exclusivity in the cult of Yelm is that to
I can see the logic of this. I think surviving younger sons of Yelmic
Over time you find guys with Yelmic fathers who might have to dig
become a initiate of Yelm, your father must have been one...[as nobles]
there
will be a surplus of people who cannot be supported by the economy...
they will have to get a
job and thus migrate downwards into the lower social classes.
"nobles" make up the bulk of the solar (non-Lodrilli) priesthoods,
educated classes, and almost all of the army officers - the top couple
levels of society. There are a lot of "poor nobles" who have to work
for a living. (Note that even rich nobles have to spend a lot of time
figuring out how to make more money, and how to keep their houses
strong.)
ditches or something, but I'll bet they're no longer accepted into the
Yelm cult. My guess is that the bulk of them go into the army and
dutifully get killed.
What evidence have you seen for the ending of castes in Dara Happa?
Who owns the land? If nobles don't own land, what have they got?
They certainly seemed healthy in 1260. (Addi numbers them in the
Entekosiad.) And the solar cultures are among the most rigid and
reactionary on the lozenge. The Lunars may have made inroads, and
increased social mobility, but deleted the whole system?
is no such thing as a country noble.
>I really think we need to move away from the belief that Yelm is the
One True Sun God and Yelmalio is the intercessor. IMO this belief
is peculiar to Sun County because they are worshipping a 'Cold Sun'
in the middle of a blazing desert.
I think the Sun County folks believe it because Monrough took a lot of
ideas directly from the Dara Happans. He bound Yelmalio closer to Yelm,
so his priests could get Sunspear. (Isn't that what KOS implies?)
>Lodril is not the intercessor between Yelm and Mankind. He is
the Earth Father and is the major men's god of the peasantry.
Yup - the peasantry is most of mankind. If you're a peasant, you only
>The Pentans do not _see_ Kargzant as the son of Yelm. Yelm is an
So why did Sheng give preferential treatment to Yelmies? (Still not real
talk to Lodril. (Dendara may also play an intercessionary role.) Now
if you mean that the DH Lodrilli don't think of Lodril as an ex-sky god,
or the brother of Yelm, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
evil god worshipped by the spineless soft city dwellers who fancy
boys instead of horses.
pleasant, but not horriffic.)
> If the[Yelm] cult is small (1% of the population), then it runs the
Plentonius addresses this. When the ranks are decimated, "whole new
risk of being exterminated after a major setback. Given that Dara Happa
has suffered Arkat, the Spolites, the EWF, the Dragonkill War, the Bull
Shahs *and* Sheng Seleris, it would be a major miracle if the Yelmic
nobility still managed to survive.
families are discovered to be descended of Yelm", or words to that
effect. Not too tricky, with lots of younger sons of younger sons
serving as third rank apprentice scribes. That's why it's VERY
important to keep track of one's lineage.
JB>How many third and later sons go into a celibate monkhood?
Some. My guess is most go into the army. (And try to become Polaris
JB>We have (finally) learned that Orlanthi initiation is into the
logistics officers instead of those in the front lines with spears.)
pantheon.
What about the Yelmies? We know that they have specific initiation into
the
mysteries of Yelm (but so do the Orlanth subcults). Wouldn't any
initiate of
a city god be an associate of Yelm anyway, in Dara Happa?
I would think so. I see the pantheon as all the Dara Happan deities.
You worship them all, but are initiated only to those appropriate to
your caste.
Thus, as a Lodrilli in the fields around Raibanth, you are initiated
into the mysteries of Lodril. Lodril is your rolemodel. You worship
Oria quite a bit, too. You worship Yelm (though not deeply, like
Lodril!) when the Lodril priests round you up, but the free beer
afterwards is a worthy enough compesation. You throw some butter in the
fire for Shargash, so your brother in the army won't be killed this
month. You worship Oslira on her days, to keep the river at the right
level. Although Lodril is technically an "associate" of Yelm, that just
means their priests are in cahoots. If you were to actually get close
enough to one of them spire or footstool temples to ask for a spell,
you'd likely get arrested and pressed into the army for yer touble -
even if you did bring a chicken!
Now, if you're the the third son of a retired supply officer for the
First Cavalry of Jillaro, you likely live on a small farm near the
forests of Aggar. Years an' years ago, your great great grandfather was
a great Sunlord from a noble house in Raibanth. Times being what they
are (and they're always getting worse!), your dad can't afford the
entrance fee for the Yelm the Youth cult for you. Maybe, if you do
really well, or somehow make a lot of money, you can go to Raibanth,
recite your famous lineage to the Imperatur of that house, and he will
get you in. But then what? You don't know anyone there, anyway. You're
better off to just go to Jillaro, and maybe learn all about bridge
building from the Mohenjari - or maybe even that really wierd Dwarin
Halthippa wench. There's always a need for lads with a head for
numbers...
Pam
------------------------------
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #41
******************************
RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark
of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material,
unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the
author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to
excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for
electronic retrieval.
Send electronic mail to Majordomo@hops.wharton.upenn.edu with "help"
in the body of the message for subscription information on this and
other mailing lists.
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 16:51:32 EEST