From: David Cake (davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au)
Date: Sat 20 Jul 1996 - 00:28:27 EEST
>The chief problem I have here is that I don't know of any RW social
>system which has a closed nobility which was defined by exclusive
>worship of a ruling god and the masses worshipping a cluster of gods
>who are subject to the ruling god.
I think part of the underlying question here is what exactly is
'worship'. Peter thinks that the Lunar Empire writeup saying that the city
dwellers "worship" Yelm is strong evidence that they are initiated into the
Yelm cult. But does worship imply initiation? I think everyone agrees that
worship implies initiation into something, but if the bulk of the
population is initiated into an associated cult of Yelm, does that count as
worship?
Now, obviously I think it does. But I don't bring the subject up
just to score points with Peter in the Yelmic debate. There is a more
important issue here, which has come up several times recently (the smith
debate, for example), and has important rules implications as well as
Gloranthan ones.
Simply put - what counts as worship? We can include in that
question what do we need to maintain a temple, what is an associated
initiate expected to do, what exactly does 'initiation into a pantheon'
mean in terms of cult rituals, and how does the concept mean in terms of
our old concept of an initiate?
To put it in terms slightly less relevent to the current debate, to
Here are my rough rules of thumb as they stand. Comment welcome. I
NB for Worship spells, read worship services if my explanation is
encourage those embroiled in it to take a step back...
If person A is initiated into the cult of Issaries, and person B is
initiated into the cult of Orlanth according to the old rules, we now know
that they are both initiates of the Orlanth pantheon. What does this mean?
I think it means that both 'worship' Orlanth. And Issaries. and the
others. Many Orlanthi ceremonies involve a blessing from Issaries. Many
Issaries ceremonies acknowledge Orlanth. Both cults get some benefit for
this - at least they get access to some of each others spells, but do they
also get the benefit of the others initiates as regards to maintaining
temples? I think they do. Does which god you are initiated into matter that
much for these purposes? I think the whole idea of pantheon initiation is
that it does not matter that much - if you are initiated into one of the
main gods, you worship the others when appropriate as a matter of course.
Now, the small cults might still have problems maintaining large
temples. The number of 'true' initiates is no doubt still important somehow
(perhaps for maintaining a link to the deity rather than determining how
many spells are available through it). Perhaps many of the minor associated
cults only get acknowledged at certain times of the year - so everyone
might acknowledge Elmal during the Winter Solstice festival, but he might
not rate a mention in earth season, and so the cults 'temple size' bounces
around during the year.
I would appreciate comment on this issue - I think its important
enough that its worth working out what the majority feeling is, so that we
have some idea of what we can assume about these issues. So please comment
by email or here (if you are just going to simply agree or disagree with
whats been said, email is probably better, to avoid rule 1 violations). I
am happy to write up something detailed on the issue if we come to any
conclusions. I suspect we are always better of with rule of thumb rather
than rules, though.
think it is plain that the RQ3 rules as they stand no longer reflect
current thinking on this issue.
too rules-centric - I play RQ, and expressing things in rules terms helps
to express everything more precisely.
1. The variety of spells available to renew depends on number of
worshippers. Very small numbers of worshippers (<100) get nothing much,
then shrines get a few. You need around 100 for it to be magically
effective: Source: Horned God writeup in GOG, 7x7x2 number from KOS. Note
that without this number, you can't renew Worship spells, so the site can't
maintain itself.
2. Associated cult initiates help maintain temple sizes.
EITHER They are less effective, as they are much less dedicated
worshippers, probably in a ratio of 5:1 to 20:1. Or perhaps Worship spells
for associated deities are limited in effectiveness as to when they are
useful or how much support they give worshippers.
This does mean, though, that a temple with 2000 initiates will be
able to maintain shrines to all its associated cults, which is what we know
from an RQ Great Temple.
3. We know that most Theyalan cultures (or at least we know for the
Orlanthi, and we assume it is similar for others) have pantheon initiation.
I assume this means that initiates to gods in the pantheon participate in
worship services to the others, and thus count towards the number of
initiates needed to maintain temple size. I don't think pantheon initiation
means that most initiates don't have a favoured deity - or at least, if it
does it would be a major change to the rules that I am going to avoid until
there is a pressing reason.
Anyway, after that big issues question, back to the Yelmic bits.
First, how does all the above stuff apply to the Yelmic debate?
I think that Yelmites and Lodrili both initiate to the pantheon, and thus
both participate in worship services for Yelm and Lodril to some degree.
Thus both are able to maintain large temples as appropriate, and both can
be said to worship both deities. Thus whether the majority of the populace
is eligible to participate in the inner mysteries of the Yelm cult is a
different (though related) issue as to whether they all worship Yelm.
>If the not-yelm worshippers
>revolted over some social issue (ie the question of debt law relating
>to not-Yelmics), then the nobles cannot handle the crisis on their own.
>To survive, they must either compromise or call in the army. But if
>the army is composed of not-Yelmics, then the nobility is *screwed*.
The army commanders are Yelmics, even if the average grunt isn't.
>The Lodrili Priesthood is *suppressed* (because anybody
Having the commanders on side is probably more important than being popular
with the troops, especially if the commanders are both popular and
possessed of some political nous.
But the average grunt is probably in a cult that has been
indoctrinating him to obey the Yelmics anyway. Looking at it from a mythic
point of view, the average grunt is probably initiated into a cult of one
of Yelms dutiful sons or servants. Looking at it cynically, the priests of
the associate cults know that they have a realistic chance to enter the
ranks of the Yelmic aristocracy if they do the right thing. There certainly
are still tensions within Yelmic society, but I don't think its any less
stable than anywhere else.
>who knows or has access to Rebellion is a dire menace to society) save
>for a few priests who are closely guarded.
No, the Monster Man subcult is suppressed. And the invisible
spears. But the Lodril priesthood itself is an essential part of Yelmic
society. Lodril is an enormously popular religion in Peloria, as popular as
Orlanthi in Dragon Pass (which is actively suppressed, and yet still has
plenty of priests). And knowing Rebellion (which is a spell of the
suppressed Monster Man subcult) is not in itself a dire threat to society
anyway - it takes lots of priests all upset enough to actually use it. I'm
sure the nobles worry about it, and suppress it, but most of the time they
have far more pressing things to worry about.
I'm sure they have mostly acolytes - not that many farming
communities will be happy to support more than a very small number of
people who spend all their time on religious duties, but I'm sure lots are
willing to support a guy with religious duties but who nevertheless pitches
in at harvest time. But I don't think its because of suppression (well,
other than economic).
Sorry about the length and dryness of this post, everybody. This
issue (the initiate one, not the Yelm one) has been annoying me for years.
Cheers
Dave
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