From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Sat 20 Jul 1996 - 10:17:13 EEST
Carl Fink:
==========
>>The chief problem I have here is that I don't know of any RW social
>>system which has a closed nobility which was defined by exclusive
>>worship of a ruling god and the masses worshipping a cluster of gods
>>who are subject to the ruling god.
>So what? Glorantha is NOT the "real world".
So what? We have humans in it.
>>To say that Yelm is the ruling god via magic or because all the
>>Other Gods acknowlege Yelm is missing the point (not that you have
>>made this argument). The Nobles must have some *backup* to enforce
>>their will in case of a social crisis.
>Yes, and it's MAGICAL backup.
Oh yes and what are the spells, praytell? Eliminate Sedition?
Compel Peasant to tug their forelocks? Enhance Tax revenues?
Stupify Prole?
>People who try to make someone else the ruling god fail for MYTHIC
>reasons, not political ones.
But they can do so because of military reasons. So why can't
they do the same by the pen? Or politics another face of
berkeleyism that isn't found in the dictionaries?
David Cake:
===========
After expounding his worship =/= initiation thesis, David returns
to the Yelmic bits:
> First, how does all the above stuff apply to the Yelmic debate?
But are the urban commoners Lodrili? To make the point more explicit,
>I think that Yelmites and Lodrili both initiate to the pantheon, and thus
>both participate in worship services for Yelm and Lodril to some degree.
your model implies that worshippers of both Lodril and non-Yelmic
Civic Gods will contribute equally to the worship of Yelm in the same
way. This does not fit well with what we know of Dara Happan society
(in that City Life is considered to be the optimal social situation).
If we are going to have a two-tier 'lay membership' then what is wrong
with giving the urban commoners access to Yelm the Youth which filfuls
that need without going into the deeper mysteries? That way we can
eliminate bureacractic lists of which gods are city and which gods are
country IMHO.
Me>>But if the army is composed of not-Yelmics, then the nobility is
>>*screwed* [in case of a social crisis].
> The army commanders are Yelmics, even if the average grunt
>isn't. Having the commanders on side is probably more important
>than being popular with the troops, especially if the commanders
>are both popular and possessed of some political nous.
Commanders that have popularity and political nous. The sterling
RW examples of commanders like this would be Marius, Sulla, Pompey,
Alcibiades, Togukawa and Julius Caesar, all of whom David will be
well advised to look at to see how well they served the status quo.
Also look at the Praetorian Guard.
> But the average grunt is probably in a cult that has been
>indoctrinating him to obey the Yelmics anyway. Looking at it from a
>mythic point of view, the average grunt is probably initiated into
>a cult of one of Yelms dutiful sons or servants.
You miss the point. The indoctrination is something which helps
the society function in normal times. But in abnormal circumstances,
these will be cast aside. Frex all armies swear allegiance to their
social superiors. This is *not* sufficient to enforce loyalty in
extreme cases (ie mutinies).
>Looking at it cynically, the priests of the associate cults know
'This is the only way in which a person without a Yelmic Father
This means that their kids will be eligible to join Yelm the Youth
>that they have a realistic chance to enter the ranks of the Yelmic
>aristocracy if they do the right thing. ^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^
We are arguing in circles! I thought I pointed this the first time
around. The Priests of associate cults do not become nobles when
they join the cult of Yelm the Elder:
can join the cult. Even so, he cannot be a noble, as this is
restricted to members of Yelm Imperator'.
and leads to the Yelmic Cult among the commoners class. Also note
that a Yelm the Youth initiate whose main god is somebody else
(Buserian, Arraz, Lokarnos) *can* become a member of Yelm the Elder
via this method.
Pam Carlson:
============
Pam said that commoners worship Yelm but are not initiates into
Yelm the Emperor (because he was the god of rulers). I pointed
out that Christ was seen in medieval christianity as the King
yet he was worshipped by the peasantry.
>Christ is the savior of the common man, not the Emperor of the
>Universe.
Sidestepping the complex theological issues (nature of trinity
*wince*), there are mosaics of Christ Pantocractor (the Lord of
the Universe) of which an excellent example can be seen in the
Dec 1983 edition of National Geographic (taken from the Church of
the Virgin at Daphni in Greece). So the fact that Yelm is the
God of Rulers does not mean that initiate-commoners are an
absurdity.
>As I understand medieval Catholicism, most peasants prayed to
>Mary, who was an intercessionary for Jesus, who was himself an
>intersessionary to God.
Mary wasn't part of Medieval catholicism until the Crusades (when
it was brought back from Byzantium). She was/is prayed to like a
Saint (as opposed to Christ who *is* God).
>(Remember - these people weren't allowed to/able to read the bible
>themselves - that was the clergy's perogative. Martin Luther blew the
>lid off that, and there was lots of associated violence.)
There was nothing to prohibit the peasants from reading the bible as
the restriction was literacy and the ability to read latin. Also
the bible was a book and they were *very* expensive until printing
was introduced (even more of an incentive to keep sacred books out of
grubby hands). What Luther did was translate it from latin into
German. Here endth the digression.
>Sure, everyone worshipped God, too, but wasn't it possible to pray
>to God only through a priest?
One could only celebrate a mass or other sacraments with a Priest
if that is what you meant by 'pray'. One could _pray_ to God
anytime! Many Saints are not members of the clergy frex.
>My Dara Happa is a parallel, with the highest class of people -
>closely tied to the priesthood - acting as the intersessionaries
>to the highest deity.
I think the Imperators (Nobles) are _Yelm_ rather than interceding
worshippers. In the Khordavu dynasty, the annoited nobles were seen
as living dieties and some elements of this has persisted over the
ages (Karvanyar's 'Every Man a Sun' doctrine) and readopted by the
current Lunar regime.
>Sure, Yelm has lots of great abilities - fighting, healing,
>observation, fertility - but these are mostly available through
>the associate cults.
It seems to me that a large number of these cults would still be
overseen by the Yelmic Priesthood from within the Yelmic Temple.
Hastatus, Hyraos, Erissa and Saggitus are explicitly mentioned
as such. The Fortunate Succession mentions that cults like
Envirinus and Bijiif are also part of the Yelm cult.
- --Peter Metcalfe
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