From: David Cake (davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au)
Date: Mon 22 Jul 1996 - 17:11:47 EEST
An aside on the Minlister discussion - I've just recently
discovered Boddingtons Ale (a very fine drop), and its symbol on the can is
a barrel of beer with two bees on it. A symbol of Minlister IMG! (I must
remember to ask for his blessing this evening, when I start my first
attempt at homebrewed beer).
>> I assume this means that initiates to gods in the pantheon participate in
>> worship services to the others, and thus count towards the number of
>> initiates needed to maintain temple size.
>
>If so, then if there's a Great Temple to Orlanth, there's a Great Temple to
>all his associates. Or did you mean the lay members (i.e. pantheon
>initiates) count as 1/20 an initiate or something?
that or something. I'm not sure whether it should be
a) associate iniates always count as 1/5 to 1/20 an initiate in others
OR
b) associate iniates who participate in associate ceremonies (not all of
them, but possibly a lot) count as full initiates for associate gods, but
they only attend on the very big festivals, so spells can only be gained at
particular times of year.
OR
c) associate gods on their own simply cannot maintain a proper temple - at
least the 100 or so full initiates are required.
Any thoughts on which one (or more) is true?
On the related question raised by Mark Smylie of 'open' vs
'initiated' cults, I think the distinction is not that clear. It is
certainly possible to have religious practices that are followed by a large
percentage of society and are also secrets reserved only for initiates, and
I think this is actually a good model of many Gloranthan societies. For
example, in Australian aboriginal society, there are different secrets told
to every male or every female as part of the adulthood ceremonies. I think
there are also secrets for totems, etc. So everyone knows a few secrets
that they can't tell just anyone. I think lots of Gloranthan societies are
like this. I'm not sure about the Orlanthi, but I think its certainly
possible that there are secrets all the Ernalda women know that they aren't
supposed to tell the men, for example. I'm pretty sure the Lodrili have
mens secrets, too, from the Entekosiad.
And just because everyone joins a cult more or less automatically
at adulthood doesn't mean that it isn't a big deal. Lots of cultural
standard initiations are quite terrifying (many of the more extreme African
circumcision practices, for example). And rituals that have no such element
can still be a very important event in the life of someone - catholic
confirmation, for example, is certainly a big deal in some communities. I
think Orlanthi, for one, do have such a ritual (I think its described in
Apple Lane) - an initiation that is open to everyone, and that everyone
succeeds at, but that is still a big deal, because it means your an adult.
Martin Crim (correctly attributed, this time - I confused him with another
Martin recently, for which I apologise to both) said
>This ties into the "how many initiates" debate. My approach on this, BTW,
>is to keep maximum fuzz.
I generally agree (well, perhaps a little less than maximum fuzz).
Rules of thumb rather than rules.
Cheers
David
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