From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@toppoint.de)
Date: Sat 31 Aug 1996 - 23:50:00 EEST
Sandy Petersen
Sorcerers and shamans vs. spirits:
>There are some other special handicaps re: sorcerers and spirits. A
>rather obvious one is that the sorcerer needs a separate Dominate
>spell for each group of spirits. The shaman does not. If the "wrong"
>kind of spirit attacks a sorcerer, he's sunk.
If it attacks a not discorporate shaman, he can use the convenient buffer
his fetch provide (while attracting those buggers in the first place), but
otherwise the shaman has the same problems as the sorcerer - he cannot take
the initiative in any way, and if he wins the spirit combat, or the spirit
breaks off combat and flees, he will need either to discorporate in a
lengthy ritual, or remain as inactive as the sorcerer.
>I said that the Malkioni's worst foes have always been shamanistic
>cultures. In response Joerg writes an enormously long post from the
>Book of Kings, written before Greg even knew there _were_ Hsunchen in
>Glorantha, and which has nothing to do with whether the Basmoli were
>shamanistic or not. The fact that they worshiped gods is immaterial
>in this regard.
The point is that the Pendali were a really civilized people, with only a
few "primitive" traits which make up the normal shamanistic culture. They
lived in cities, and shamans and cities are things that don't go together
well in most cases.
The Basmoli culture which developed in the Mislari Mountains sounds very
Hsunchen to me, really. It probably is shamanic, at least it has the culture
to support shamans. And it is different from the earlier Pendali culture.
Look, I don't claim that the Book of Kings presents Greg's current views on
Glorantha. Part of the reason why I did reply at such length also to give
people a glimpse at what formed Greg's views, and at what confirmed some
ideas of mine about the Basmoli and various other human peoples of
southwestern Glorantha (Ralios, Tanisor, Wenelia). Like that they had some
form of settled culture already prior to the Darkness, with monumental
temple cities imitating the greatest known in the southwest, Hrelar Amali,
and with some sort of hereditary divine kingship or queenship. That they
were aware of the land goddesses, and did worship them over most other
spirits, except their (male) ancestors.
A bit more like Golden Age Prax...
The "unified" Hsunchen culture as per Gods of Glorantha IMO is a God Learner
construct, clearly failing to describe the details of even one of the
cultures. It seems that Greg was pretty aware of cultures with beast
brothers, since he described the Mislari Basmoli in the same text I quoted
above.
The Western Gloranthan perception of Hsunchen seems to have been formed by
Where in Glorantha did the term "hsunchen" originate, anyway? I doubt it is
their encounter with the Pendali, though.
part of a hypothetical common hsunchen language. It might have been the word
for "people" in one of the first "hsunchen" culture examined by the God
Learners, though, paralleling names like "Graeci" for all the Hellenes and
not just that northwestern tribe.
Haragalans divine sun magics:
That's interesting. Do you know more about them?
> There is a society of magicians who have mastered this magic.
>It is not a religious group, but a philosophical one.
>>do you say that after the Pharaoh's disappearance in 1616 and his
>>failure to reappear by Sea Season 1617 was followed by a civil war
>>not only in kingless Heortland, but all over Kethaela?
> There was a struggle for power after the Pharaoh's
>disappearance, and the Admiral sided with Lunar ambassadors vs. the
>rest of Kethaela.
Hmm. Precious little has been published about this. From the published
stuff, I have extrapolated quite a lot about the succession wars in
Heortland, whose king died soon after the Pharaoh disappeared - in my
campaign King Owain of Heortland dies of an affliction he attracted during
the Sacred Time Lightbringers' Quest, during which he tried to get the
Pharaoh as his price from the deities of the Underworld. (The motivation
would have included some gratitude of the rescuee shifting the balance in
Kethaelan power...) This way, Heortland was out of the race in 1617.
I don't have any clear ideas about what the other Sixths did after Earth
Season 1616 (when the Pharaoh disappeared during the Esrolian harvest
rites). I suppose that the first reaction was to call for a Tournament of
the Masters of Luck and Death (actually a quite wrong-headed demand, IMO:
the tournaments "just happened" whenever the Pharaoh required a new body,
and were not initiated by any priesthood of Belintar's), and wait for the
outcome. There was sort of a tournament; a number of Holy Country citizens
(and denizens?) got sucked into a magical plane of the land, and competed or
followed their private quests, but most of them "fell out of the quest" and
reappeared somewhere in Kethaela, or did not reappear. As long as the
(randomly chosen, randomly at least to the rulers) candidates kept
reappearing, it was clear that the Tournament still was going on. When
reappearances failed (including that of a winner), it became clear to the
rulers that something bigger was amiss.
I can imagine that the Shadow Plateau trolls tried to summon the Only Old
One at this point, after all he had been the ruler of all Kethaela of old.
But did the other Sixths have any realistic candidate to unify all the Sixths?
>rest of Kethaela. One effect of this was the appearance of the
>Kingdom of Jab.
Wasn't this the consequence of Richard the Tigerhearted's ignorance of the
importance of the Footprint defense measures? In my campaign (located a
day's ride from the Footprint to the west, set in 1617) the Warden of the
Footprint Marches, Laird Korlaman of the Orshanti, is one of the more
influential contenders for the throne of Heortland after the demise of King
Owain who loses a battle against Mularik Ironeye at a crossing over the
Syphon River. (Korlaman's premature engagement will be due to some
inconsiderate actions by allies, involving my campaign...)
In order to suppress any military power held by this contender, Richard
closes down the permanent Humakti and Storm Bull regiments there (with the
support of the Rokari church which dislikes these pagan commoners in the
role of protectors). He fails to see the importance in the annual
scorpionman breed hunts to keep the pest controlled. This lack of attention,
in addition to the efforts of Queen Gagig Twobarb to unify the four tribes
of the Forest of First Reward, aka Foulblood Forest in human lands. If the
Lunars did support Gagig in any way, how would the admiral'S betrayal have
influenced this? IMO this was a problem caused or at least neglected by
Richard the Tigerhearted. Your Glorantha may vary, of course.
>>Still, the Wenelian mermen called the Pharaoh and his ships to
>>their aid in 1582 against Alatan (in the first of a proud tradition
>>of desastrous defeats of Holy Country fleets).
> And this, added to the defeat by Harrek, doesn't strike you
>as rather sinister? That EVERY time the Holy Country fleet goes to
>battle it gets catastrophically sunk, even though it's supposedly
>trained and supported by merfolk? This tends to support my theory,
>do you not agree?
An interesting point. Something to mull over; makes me wonder what the
What is the Ludoch position to the cult of Dormal? Would they support the
peoples of the other Sixths did to sabotage the Pharaoh's rule...
Waertagi in their campaign to eradicate the cult? If so, why should they
prefer a Waertagi domination on the seas?
>>The elimination of the Holy Country's fleet.
>>>Once again. This was the third major eradication of a Holy Country
>>>fleet. the Pharaoh always commissioned new, and better, ships.
> But every time he had to spend time and money.
The money spent was actually beneficial to the Holy Country: It did not tap
greatly into the financial ressources of the Pharaoh, who received a
phantastic amount only from the annual interest on his bank-crashing win at
Casino Town (around 1318). The Holy Country gouvernment was in a similar
situation to the oil-nations of our time - there was a lot of wealth
available, but it had to be spent in a way that it did not ruin the country.
The repeated investions into the ship-building industry did provide a
greater economical exchange, spreading prosperity and increasing other
ressources.
Time was an essential loss in the race for domination of the seas.
>If his fleets
>hadn't been destroyed they would have been even stronger, and he
>would have had more veteran sailors to man them with.
So the 1616 defeat was the only one which had mermen carrying the sailors
ashore?
>These defeats
>weren't trivial, and they haven't been just shrugged off. I believe
>that if the Holy Country had managed to win those battles (or avoid
>them), it would be the pre-eminent sea nation today. Think of all the
>captains and sailors who'd be alive, and all the ships that would
>still be floating.
Another Middle Sea Empire? I can see that the Ludoch would dread that.
However, the initial setback did end that threat, wouldn't it?
>>Was this defeat that serious? Then how do the Capratis grain ships
>>travel to and from Nochet?
>>And are all fishing vessels and fish freighters (to carry local
>>catches to the markets at Karse, Nochet, or Vizel to cater for
>>inland customers) affected?
> Yes. They no longer have protection against pirates or sea
>monsters. The Pharaonic fleet is no longer there to patrol the inner
>waters and keep the sea-trolls and mermonsters down. Occasional lone
>pirate ships are a greater danger, and gradually become ever more so.
So the journey across the bay has become riskier. I really doubt that the
>And, of course, now no ship can travel except at the sufference of
pharaonic navy was able to suppress all piratical or monster activities in
the bay even when it was at its strength (partly because bribed to hunt
pirates or smugglers elsewhere for a time...). Pirates no longer have to
disguise as peaceful merchants.
>the Ludoch.
That hasn't really changed, has it? IMO the Ludoch could not reckon with the
Pharaoh's disappearance at Jar-eel's hands, unless the Lunars should have
made a greater alliance than suspected - which I doubt, in the light of
their difficulties holding Brian in Heortland.
>Not that they've stopped any of them yet. But the mere
>knowledge that the Ludoch control the seas tends to make all shipfolk
>eager to please them.
So what? IMO, the Ludoch have lost in this game. The Holy Country fleet was
manned mainly with Islander fisherfolk, traditional allies (and even
relatives) of the mermen, whereas the replacements (Wolf Pirates, Nolosite
traders) have a good deal less respect than the Kethaelan seamen. The
Kethaelan sailors were sure to respect the Ludoch (not just fear them), and
to be friendly.
Or was/is there something about Dormal's rituals and designs which causes
the Ludoch headaches? Do they have prophecies about
>>In my vision of the Holy Country, what was lost were the military
>>vessels and semi-military galleys
> Joerg, what kind of pirates loot only warships and not
>merchant vessels? The wolf pirates plundered everything in the
>Mirrorsea.
I was thinking of this battle, which was a military encounter, with few of
the slow merchant tubs involved, and not an oversized convoy action.
>>On a geographically related issue: what is the role of the sea
>>trolls off the shore of the Holy Country?
> They are primitive monsters, rather like cave trolls. They do
>not affect underwater politics except as a local threat to citizens.
Do they have contacts or even an allegiance to the Shadow Plateau trolls?
------------------------------
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