From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idgecko.idsoftware.com)
Date: Mon 02 Sep 1996 - 20:54:08 EEST
The debate goes on vs. Shamans and Sorcerers.
For what it's worth, I'm continuing this discussion NOT in
order to prove to Joerg the error of his ways, but also because I
think it is interesting and useful (at least to me) to hammer out
whether a shaman actually _is_ better than a sorcerer at handling
spirits. Joerg has usefully taken the Devil's Advocate position.
Joerg
1) Even a lengthy discorporation ritual is superior to the
3) A spirit cannot break off combat unless it has 10 MPs more
>If a spirit attacks a non-discorporate shaman, he can use his fetch,
>but otherwise the shaman has the same problems as the sorcerer - he
>cannot take the initiative, and if he wins the spirit combat, or the
>spirit breaks off combat and flees, he needs either to discorporate,
>or remain as inactive as the sorcerer.
To address these points.
sorcerer's ability in this regard -- i.e., nothing. If a spirit's
hiding, the sorcerer can do little. The shaman can hunt it down on
its own turf.
2) If the shaman wins a spirit combat, bringing a spirit's
MPs to 0, he can bind it into his fetch or a magic item, whether he's
corporate or not. He doesn't even need a Control spell.
than the shaman, so a losing spirit isn't going anywhere. But a
Protective Circle keeps a spirit from getting at the sorcerer at all
(if it works), so a spirit who fails is still free to flee.
Haragalans divine sun magics:
> There is a society of magicians who have mastered this magic.
>It is not a religious group, but a philosophical one.
>>That's interesting. Do you know more about them?
Okay. In addition to the fact that they're just plain good
ships, Haragalan tallships have two unique features. First off,
Lumavoxoran`s magic can be extended to Haragalan ships if a bowl of
liquid from the god`s temple pool is, with the proper rituals, kept
on board. This was discovered only a few decades ago, and appears to
be unique to Haragala, at the moment.
Second, most tallships have a sunscope mounted atop their
Nils and Greg Fried (I believe) tend towards a belief that
Haragalan society is governed by the Captains. In theory,
rear tower. This device focuses sunbeams rather like a gigantic
mirror (but magic, of course). It takes skillful sailing and aiming
to keep your ship and the sunscope both pointed directly at the
target for a long time. The longer you can hold the sunscope on the
target, the more it can do -- even a brief glisten can dazzle
crewmembers (with luck, the steersman). A longer exposure can heat up
the ship, or cause its sails to catch fire. Finally, the wood itself
can burst into flame. Supposedly if it's held on the water long
enough, it can make the water boil.
the specialists who operate the sunscopes are priests. I believe that
they are adherents to a special society: the Sun Seers.
every Captain (who owns his own ship) gets a vote. In practice, some
Captains are more equal than others. Of course, for a talented
individual who can't inherit or buy a vessel, ambitions are
necessarily limited. Membership in the Sun Seers is an alternative
way for at least magically-skilled outsiders to gain wealth and
importance. Of course, only native-born Haragalans need apply, and
not all of them. One of the ways the Sun Seers keep themselves
important is by restricting membership to only the very
best-qualified.
Me
> There was a struggle for power after the Pharaoh's disappearance
Joerg
>Precious little has been published about this.
It was all gamed out, just as was the Sartar High Council. I
>I suppose that the first reaction was to call for a Tournament of
>But did the other Sixths have any realistic candidate to unify all
did not participate in the game, but as I recall at one point it was
all five vs. the Admiral (played by Yurek Chodak).
>the Masters of Luck and Death
This civil war was, in effect, a kind of MOLADS tourney.
>the Sixths?
"realistic"? They had Richard the Tigerhearted, the Admiral,
several competing Esrolian matriarchs, the Littlest Only Old One,
Gemborg's champion, and at least one Lunar imposter? If they'd been
able to unite behind one of them, they might have been able to get
somewhere, I suppose. But none of them really sound like future
Pharaoh material, do they?
I mentioned that this civil strife and the Lunar influence caused the
Kingdom of Jab.
>Wasn't this the consequence of Richard the Tigerhearted's ignorance
If Richard had kept suppressing the Footprint, then the
Of course, I suppose we could blame the Storm Bulls for
Officially, the Rightarm Island Ludoch are friendly to it.
>of the importance of the Footprint defense measures?f
Yes, certainly. The Kingdom of Jab, like most Gloranthan (and
real-world) catastrophes, had multiple antecedents. One way to look
at it is like this: If Richard hadn't weakened the Storm Bull cult
(which was a hotbed of Heortling resistance to his regime), then the
scorpion folk would not have been able to organize. But they still
needed the vulnerability of the humans via civil strife and the
stimulus of Lunar aid in order to trigger their onslaught.
Queendom would not have been able to seize its opportunity when the
countryside erupted. It would not have been there. On the other hand,
if the Lunars and civil war hadn't occurred, the Queendom may have
been forced to bide its time, or when it _did_ invade, it would have
done far less harm, because the humans could have responded to the
outbreak in an organized manner much more swiftly.
wasting their time resisting Richard instead of keeping up their
anti-chaos duties. And in my heart of hearts, I can't help but feel
that the scorpion folk are at least a _little_ at fault here. ;)
Cynically, if there were no ships at all, the Ludoch would have less
opportunity to meddle with surface life.
>Would they support the Waertagi in their campaign to eradicate the
> If so, why should they prefer a Waertagi domination on the seas?
>The money spent [on new fleets] was actually beneficial to the Holy
>cult?
Dunno. They haven't yet. Maybe because there are so few
Waertagi, and those that are around have not yet tried to eradicate
the Dormal boats, either because they are too busy looking for other
things, or because the Dormal shipping is too vast. Note that it is
possible that the Waertagi aren't anti-Dormal at all. The fact that
they are apt to attack Dormal-type boats is probably the result of
the fact that they are apt to attack _anyone_. And Dormal's ships are
among the most common.
Because they're kin.
>Country:
Possibly so, but he could have spent the same amount of money
on ships even if he'd still _had_ his previous fleet. The Holy
Country has no shortage of sailors. Then instead of rebuilding one
fleet over and over, he could have had three separate fleets.
>If his fleets hadn't been destroyed he would have had more veteran
>>So the 1616 defeat was the only one which had mermen carrying the
sailors to man them >with.
>>sailors ashore?
No sailors were carried ashore from the defeat in Kralorela.
Generally speaking, the Ludoch could only save Holy Country sailors
when they got sunk reasonably close to the Holy Country. And of
course sailors get killed in battles by means other than drowning.
And even the mermen couldn't save them all. Certainly the Holy
Country took fewer losses among its losing sailors than an enemy
fleet would have done. I bet nearly every Wolf Pirate who fell
overboard in their great victory was pulled down and drowned by
mermen, undines, etc. In at least one of the Holy Country battles in
its own waters (can't remember which one), sea-trolls are known to
have thronged the waters and fought the mermen for possession of the
sailors.
>>And, of course, now no ship can travel except at the sufference of
>>the Ludoch.
>IMO, the Ludoch have lost in this game. The Holy Country fleet was
>That hasn't really changed, has it?
Yes. Because before it was the "Admiral and his Ludoch
minions", whereas now it is the "Ludoch and their human allies."
>manned mainly with Islander fisherfolk, whereas the replacements
You just aren't taking the long view of things. Pain must
come before the baby. The people who are suffering most from the lack
of a fleet aren't the Islanders -- it's the protein-starved and
isolated cities of Esrolia, Heortland, and Caladraland. It's now much
harder to get a message from one part of Kethaela to another. All the
Sixths are becoming more paranoid. No doubt soon it will be time to
introduce a new Unifier, and all will be ready to receive Her.
>Do sea trolls have contacts or even an allegiance to the Shadow
>Plateau?
Not as a group. Perhaps individuals or single families. There
is no overarching organization of sea trolls.
Sandy P.
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End of Glorantha Digest V3 #167
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