From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@toppoint.de)
Date: Mon 09 Sep 1996 - 20:01:00 EEST
Peter Metcalfe
>Joerg had claimed that if the Pharaoh conquered a foreign land then
Not useless. Like every conquered, suppressed land it can be bled out with
>it would be useless to him for he would have no magics to rule over
>it.
tribute, slavery, and other oppressive methods. It cannot, however, become
another integrated part of his realm with equal rights to the existing
Sixths; at best, it can become part of one of the Sixths.
There are smaller groups within the Holy Country which are not full Sixths,
but have sworn direct fealty to the Pharaoh. IMO this is the case for the
city of Karse, which traditionally maintains an autonomous policy towards
the kingdom of Heortland. Likewise, the land of Porthomeka between the
Gorphing and Shining Rivers south of Esrolia is independent of the rulers of
either Caladraland or Esrolia, and has strong elements of both neighbouring
cultures, with religious allegiances to both.
I don't think that the Pharaoh has any control over Gemborg, at best, there
will be friendly relations. Same with the Arstola aldryami.
>>The Red Emperor or the Dara Happan Yelmic (Kargzantic, Paradisial
>>Aviatoric, Antirian or whatever) Emperors all were avatars of a
>>sovereignty deity, whereas John Carter Belintar isn't.
>This is a red herring IMO as the Pharaoh is his *own* sovereignity
>deity.
That's my point. The Pharaoh does not have the freedom to act independently
from the deity behind the realm, because there is none but himself. He is
bound by the divine as well as mundane duties of the ruler.
>still be able to evolve new magics to rule conquered lands.
Rule as a foreign oppressor, not integrated into native rites and religion
like he managed to intrude into the religious ways of the Sixths. The
Pharaoh would be no more a ruler than e.g. Harrek in Laskal, a ruler by
force, not by rite. Not a full king with all the priest aspects properly
performed.
>>And there is another difficulty: the Holy Country has had some unity
>>throughout its mythical prehistory, or so the Pharaoh claims. All parts of
>>it had their Silver Age Hero, which was summoned by Belintar (like by Arkat
>>before) and which may have given him his claim on sovereignty.
>So? There are similar silver age heroes all over the place.
Well, name those of Newcoast or the Solanthi lands. Name those of Prax...
>The only unity the place had was that it was ruled by the Only Old One.
Not true. The unity Belintar found was that all the land acknowledged Esrola
I don't know how much of this unity was God Learner induced, but the Only
or Kethaa as the land goddess, even though the cultures were vastly different.
Old One surely drew on a similar unity when he ruled Esrolia in addition to
the Shadow Plateau and the lower Creek-Stream-River valley.
>Even then he managed to extend his rule to control the
>Haralding Pig Farmers and parts of Dragon Pass.
As subject people rather than citizens, I suppose.
>>If the Pharaoh had conquered another country by military force, that
>>country would still have to be introduced into his rule by extensive
>>heroquesting.
>I agree: compulsory worship of the Pharoah at newly erected shrines
>would be the first step. To get hold of the land, one would merely
>capture the earth priestesses or other religious authorities and
>provide them with a guard of honour. This trick has worked quite
>well in the RW with people like the Pope, Moctezuma and the Inca.
Part of the trick Belintar did was to get the goddess with his rite in
Esrolia, for all the other Sixths. IMO, of course.
The marriage into other cults might work with avatars different from the
actual deity...
>>Somehow I find it difficult to believe that the Pharaoh can take a couple of
>>years off his seasonal "Reinstate Sovereignty" rituals in the Sixths to
>>include a new such ritual in his annual turnaround, and keep his country
>>united, and fit the new rite into his schedule.
>Ah, but after subjugating the newly conquered land to his will, he could
>always use its manpower to effect domestic 'reforms' at home so that he
>could have plenty of free time for further conquest...
If it was a mere manpower problem, no doubt he could. However, there is more
required than manpower to perform all the necessary rites of sovereignty in
the Sixths. Unlike Moonson, the Pharaoh never used proxies for these duties.
And whenever the Pharaoh was forced to leave out one of the seasonal rites
(in times of war or when absent in Hell before a Tournament of the Masters
of Luck and Death), that year would be a bad year for that Sixth.
>I said that the Pharoah could crown himself the Archduke of Slontos if
>he ever conquered the Manirian Coast.
>>To what avail? A meaningless title with no magical or mythological reason
>>to convey a magical sovereignty. The conquered province would remain a
>>conquered foreign territory.
>The title is not meaningless as it was used in the Jrusteli Empire.
Archduke of Slontos is about as meaningful as Bishop of Neleoswal. Both
countries have been sunk, except for a couple of islands. The culture which
defined them has been radically altered, and the current inhabitants are
only partially related to the previous inhabitants.
>>The Lunar Empire has its Glowline to define "us" and "them", linked to a
>>deity totally independent from the Emperor. Before the Glowline, the Lunar
>>Empire had problems to incorporate the Provinces properly.
>How come? They managed to incorporate the Western Reaches
as Foreigner Citizens
>and most of the Southern Provinces (save Tarsh)
as Provincials
>before the Glowline was made. Also
>the Glowline was built in the war against Sheng Seleris, not the
>campaigns of the Conquering Daughter.
And a full integration of these regions came only after Sheng had been
killed, and the Empire was reborn.
>And a final word about the Pharoah:
>'At first the Holy Country sought naval supremacy, but after a fleet
>was sunk by the Kralori in 1588, the Pharoah decreed that his navy
>would _conquer_ [my emphasis] no more'.
> Genertela Book p 46.
>It seems he didn't share your view about what he could and could not do.
Conquest is not integration, as the Lunars recognized when they had taken
over Carmania. The Pharaoh could have held foreign territories by force, but
not by the means by which he had the support of the Holy Country.
All of this in my Glorantha, since the Holy Country is the focus of my
campaign, and my views...
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End of Glorantha Digest V3 #180
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