From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idgecko.idsoftware.com)
Date: Fri 13 Sep 1996 - 21:59:31 EEST
Joerg B:
>Under RQ2 a standard priest >>could discorporate, whereas shamans
>couldn't by default.
A situation so logically inept that it had to be changed, and
anyone who still uses this particular holdover from RQ2 deserves any
ludicrous situation he gets into. In any case, since we were
discussing shamans vs. sorcerers, only embryonic shamans existed in
RQ2, and sorcerers not at all.
I mentioned that totemic magic is good vs. ghosts.
JB>As are Humakti
Humakt do not have access to Free Ghost.
If you want to bring priests into the discussion, I freely
admit that a priest is as good as a shaman at protecting his flock
from certain evil spirits. Again, this doesn't apply to sorcerers.
>> 2) If the shaman wins a spirit combat, he can bind it into his
>>fetch or a magic item, whether corporate or not.
>JB. However, he needs all the MP the fetch just spent to overcome
>the spirit to contain its MP.
>the fetch is useless as >a permanent storage for spirits, unless the
>shaman wants to spend >most of his time discorporated hunting for
>all the escapees.
This comment, Joerg, is so specious that I wonder if you can
be serious. First off, it's unlikely the shaman has lost more MP than
the captured spirit. Next, note that the spirit's current MPs are 0,
which any fetch can contain with no trouble at all. As the spirit's
MPs recover over time, so do the fetch's.
Finally, the shaman doesn't _have_ to bind it into his fetch.
He can put it into a magic item, like anyone else. It's just that he
has the fetch as an additional option.
Either you have not played much with shamans, or else you use
very aberrant rules. I can't think of a single time a shaman in any
of my campaigns had an "escapee".
JB>>In order to discorporate the shaman has to perform a lengthy
>>ritual. An intelligent spirit would disturb the shaman during this
>>ritual. e.g. by igniting the ritual components...
The spirit has to know the shaman is doing it, and where the
shaman is, and be facing a shaman too stupid to set up any defenses.
Get real, Joerg.
>A sorcerer specialising in bound ghosts will have a quite versatile
>attack force even against spirits. A low power Multispelled Dominate
>on the bound ghosts (while still in their bindings) will give him
>full control over his minions. Effectively, you get a one man spirit
>army attacking equal to a shaman.
Let's take your pathetic example here, Joerg, and see just
what we're up against.
Incidentally, in my revised sorcery rules, Dominate requires
Intensity of at least half the target's MPs. If the target fails to
resist vs. the target's MPs, he falls under the caster's domination.
A being inside a binding enchantment cannot resist this spell, and
only one Intensity need be used regardless of the being's MPs. This
does fill the idiotic loophole making multispelled 1-point spells
superior to a normal Dominate. I didn't do it to weaken wizards -- I
did it so that the best way to cast this important spell wasn't to
roll 18d100, striving for an 05 on each one. This activity is so
game-stultifying that it was an obligation to alter that particular
rule, no? BUT, even if we use the old, bad rules, we get the
following:
SORCERER SPECIALIZING IN BOUND GHOSTS -- he needs Summon Ghost,
Dominate Ghost, and Resist Spirit, each of which costs him weeks of
toil to master, plus a POW apiece (for spell matrices, lest they
diminish his free INT). He'll need at least the Dominate at 90% or
more, lest he fail in casting it under duress. The Resist can be cast
outside of combat. Each pet ghost costs him 2 POW for the binding. To
gather a ghost takes several hours of ritual. When the ghost arrives,
the sorcerer Multispells 18 Dominates (which costs 18 MPs, of
course), which gives him a 75% chance of overcoming the ghost as it
appears. If he fails, the ghost flees at the rate of 10-20m per
strike rank, which takes it out of range long before the sorcerer
gets a second chance to cast.
If the ghost doesn't flee, it will attack, in which case he
must engage in spirit combat, and needs a Resist Spirit at least
equal to a ghost's average POW, say 16. If he attempts no more than a
Multispell 7 Dominate, he can try to cast it once a round.The
Multispell 7 wins 30% of the time. The sorcerer makes his
Concentration roll ,36% of the time assuming INT 18. This gives him
an 11% chance per round of "getting" the ghost, for an average of 5
rounds. During those 5 rounds, the ghost will succeed, on the
average, of eating 2-3 MPs.
This means that the sorcerer needs access to 72 MPs minimum
to be safely certain of ghost-summoning. And he spends an average of
39 MPs per ghost. (He could reduce this by having bound spirits cast
spells on his behalf, but this requires even more POW for _their_
bindings, time to teach them sorcery, etc). The sorcerer needs 10 POW
spirits for these MPs, (adding 55 MPs to his 17 for 72 total). This
requires 10 more POW for the bound spirits. The Power spirits also
take Summonings. A mere Multispell 10 gives an 89% chance of
defeating the average Power spirits
SHAMAN SPECIALIZING IN BOUND GHOSTS -- he needs Control Ghost and
Spirit Screen, which costs him maybe two afternoons. Each ghost
beyond those in his fetch costs 2 POW for the binding. (Any
reasonably worthwhile shaman ought to be able to maintain at least
two ghosts in his fetch.) He doesn't need extra MPs to take over the
ghosts. All he needs to do is discorporate, go to the spirit plane,
and look for the ghosts. This isn't wholly safe, but neither is the
sorcerer's Summoning -- he can summon up bad things by accident, and
if the sorcerer gets an elemental or the Bad Man, he is sunk, whereas
the discorporate shaman is practically immune to these threats
(elementals can't enter spirit combat).
A POW 16 shaman with Spirit Screen 3 defeats a POW 16 ghost
90% of the time. With Spirit Screen 4, he'll win 97% of the time. The
shaman will lose MPs in the fight, of course -- 4 for casting S.
Screen, plus an uncertain number to the ghost. If we assume that he
loses 8 MPs each time he fights (a grossly high estimate), then it
costs him 12 MPs per combat.
TOTAL INVESTMENT IN A SORCERER WITH 10 BOUND GHOSTS
10 POW for 10 Power spirit bindings.
3 POW for 3 spell matrices
20 POW for 10 ghost bindings
Summon Ghost and 25% in Resist Spirit
90% skill in Dominate Ghost
33 POW total
~ 2 years (to learn spells, cast summonings, etc -- the
greatest amount of time is spent getting Dominate Ghost up to 90)
app. 530 MPs (over the course of the summonings
TOTAL INVESTMENT IN A SHAMAN WITH 10 GHOSTS
Control Ghost & Spirit Screen spells.
16 POW (for 8 ghost bindings)
12 days (to learn spells and discorporate)
MPs = 120 MPs.
A shaman can achieve the lofty level of 10 ghosts far more quickly,
and at a lower level of power than a sorcerer with this goal.
NOTE that if a Daka Fal shaman has a colossal edge over the
sorcerer, and that other shamans typically get special bonuses from
their cults, too.
>When it comes to exorcism, the picture gets ludicrous - here you
>have the body of the possessed victim, there you have the inanimate
>body of the shaman, who gets beating after beating if the possessing
>spirit has a POW of 4d6 or greater.
Unless the sorcerer sensibly casts Spirit Screen, or has a
POW higher than 14 when he goes into combat, or uses a healing
spirit, or sends a friendly ancestor, etc.. Cut me some slack.
>Why not have a scene where the spirit master performs the exorcism
>while remaining inside his body?
>The RQ3 shaman is about as dull as the RQ2 shaman.
What stops you? Have the shaman use a specialty spell or
ritual. Shamans have access to spirit cults, unique spirits, friendly
spirits who willingly help them, etc.
Eat me. It's no duller than the players who run them. I've
had enormous fun with these shamans over the last decade.
>Suppose a target beaten down to say 12 MP but a two-point spirit
>block up and the 22 MP spirit having lost 3 MP. What now? Will the
>spirit hover around, waiting for the spell to fade out?
Since the 19 MP spirit only has +7 MPs on the target, he
can't break off, unless you adhere to the rule that Spirit Block
actually cuts off spirits weaker than it, in which case the 19 MP
spirit would be knocked away from the target, but I guess he could
hang around for fifteen minutes.
>So a spirit combat, once initiated, will always be fought to one
>opponent losing out big? Why?
A spirit combat, once initiated, has three possible endings:
1) one side is reduced to 0 MPs. His opponent can then leave,
or use a spell to capture the loser.
2) one side is reduced to 10 MPs less than its opponent. If
the losing spirit is determined to keep on fighting, then his
opponent can either
a) break off combat and depart faster than the loser
can follow (he'll have at least an 10m/sr edge on him).
or b) use a spell to capture the loser.
or c) keep going till the loser is at 0 MPs,
3) both sides voluntarily agree to stop fighting. Nothing
whereupon it is neutralized and can be ignored.
prevents this from happening except GM and player lack of
imagination.
>The shaman might not have seen a pain elemental before visiting the
>Machine Ruins, but he'll be able to figure out how to deal with it
>sooner than the sorcerer, with his rote spells and stratospheric
>logic.
>The sorcerer will send his hounds (e.g. ghosts) against the spirit.
Why does the shaman have better spirits than the sorcerer?
A sorcerer can go hunt on the spirit plane and look up the
And the shaman won't? He's got _more_ bound spirits than the
stupid sorcerer, since he not only has all the spirits (and better
ones!) than the sorcerer, plus he also has extra spirits held in his
fetch.
Because the sorcerer needs to learn a separate summon and control
spell for every type of spirit. This costs him 50 hours per summon
spell (plus 1 POW to keep it in a matrix, lest his free INT dwindle).
It costs him 2 years to train a control spell up to 90%, plus another
POW for its matrix. At this rate, no sorcerer is going to learn very
many different Dominate/Summon pairs, and will restrict himself to
only a few types of spirits, if any.
type of spirit he needs. He can get by without a control spell if he
wants, since it only costs him an afternoon to get it back, but he
can learn the control spells for these spirits if he needs (taking a
single day to learn each one)
Hence, a shaman can have various elementals, pain spirits,
wraiths, hellions, etc., and change his assortment of spirits
depending on what is needed for the task at hand.
Sandy P.
...
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