From: Lemens, Chris (CNU!AUSTIN3!lemens@cnucorp.attmail.com)
Date: Wed 06 Nov 1996 - 12:40:00 EET
Peter Metcalfe responds to Phillip Hibbs that Powers to not equate to causes
pre-Time because, per the (God Learner-compiled) story about Humakt slaying
Grandfather Mortal (another GL compilation). I still like the idea. I do
not see why the first entity to invoke a Power would know that he was
invoking it; in other words, at least the first (does "first" have meaning
in pre-Time?) invocation of a Power could be accidental.
Peter, Carl Fink, and (I think) Saravan Peacock provide the supposition and
evidence that life pre-Time for some cultures was not that different from
life during Time. In good GL fashion, I would say that this is evidence
that those cultures simply never noticed the occurrence of Time, not that
they were measuring Time prior to Time existing. (I do not think that this
is true of the Uz. They probably noticed the existence of time, but it was
simply less important that the arrival of the burning god in Hell.) I like
Nick Thed-Shaman's generalization of a race being so involved with their
gods (and hence in the gods' plane, which is not bound by Time), that they
never noticed the advent of Time.
Peter also objects that the idea of Time being released more or less at the
Dawn is a GL concept. Yup. So?
In what Peter perhaps views as the other side of the coin, "Plentonius,
Peter asks why someone measuring the turnings of an hour glass would call it
Zzabur and the Kralori all independently believe that time was measurable
before the Dawn." Again, I do not see why being able to measure causality
necessitates a measurement of time. On this point, Nick says "Considering
that time did not exist in pre-Compromise Glorantha then the amount of
turnings of the glass don't matter. If you had two hourglasses on opposite
sides of Glorantha, they might measure different periods when they were
brought back together." I could not agree more, which means I was unclear
in my first post. My point was that Zzabur et alia were measuring
causality, not Time, and subsequently were misinterpreted to have been
measuring Time. (A few of my less fortunate brethren erred.) The
hourglasses turned by different people would have different causes, so would
end up with different measurements. (Stepping out of my GL role for a
minute and into my RW post-modern self, if "measuring causality" is not a
great GL concept, I've never seen one.) Why Zzabur would want to measure
causality is a little unclear, but will certainly become more clear with the
progress and universal reinstitution of God Learning.
something other than Time. Simply because Time did not yet exist. (Great
circularity, huh?) If you do not accept that premise, you should not accept
my description of what pre-Time causality measurers were up to.
Peter then beats me to a very ragged pulp with sources saying that there
Nick seems to agree with some of what I said, but not the rest (typical of a
I see nothing contrary with my statement that hunger, fatigue, death, etc.
I very much like Daniel McCluskey's explanation of the difference between
For those non-God Learners out there, convert! Reconcile the
were day and night and rotations of the sky during pre-Time. This is what
comes of being out of the RQ loop for too many years. Trying gracefully to
extract my foot from my mouth: I'll admit that Yelm was free to travel (he
was the Emperor after all), but contend that he generally stayed on the
Spike (he was the Emperor after all). I can't respond to the Entoskiad
quote because I don't have it and don't understand it. (Wasn't that
graceful?) The rotation of the sky per GRAY can be an effect of causes and
hence could be measured just like other causes and effects. Kralorea's
seasons of course do refer to events in pre-Time, but they were not temporal
in any case. (Besides, everyone knows that nothing reliable comes from
Kralorea; they were nearly impossible to re-educate and still believe in
that dragon nonsense.) The LBQ was not an attempt to recreate the pre-Time
seasons, but its mythic scope is confined to generally Theyelan areas.
There you have it: GL fundamentalism.
Thed-Shaman). He challenges me to explain how Chalana Arroy, who was in
Hell awaiting the coming of the Devil after he was killed by Urox, was also
on the surface healing Urox after his battle with the Devil. Simple.
First, you have to remove the words "after" from your challenge because
they are temporal concepts that do not apply. Then trace the lines of
causality. Because she's a healer, she heals Urox. Because she's a light
bringer, she's in Hell. (P.S. where's it say she was waiting for the Devil?
Were you referring to the LBQ, as I assumed? Like I said, I've been out of
touch.) I refer back to what Lewis Jardin said (and with which I initially
disagreed, but now agree because I like Oliver Bernuetz's second post about
pre-Time being 3-D and Time being 4-D) about events in pre-Time being
located in space but not Time. She can be in multiple places all at the
same not-Time. To visit these events on a heroquest, you must locate the
geographical analog on the gods' plane, but it will be there regardless of
when in Gloranthan Time you decide to visit.
were effects in Nick's objection that their causes were the invocation of
Death, attacks by malign spirits, or the exhaustion of the soul.
pre-Time and Time and propose to initiate him as a God Learner (which ought
to completely convince the rest of ye ignorant backwater heathens that he is
wrong).
irreconcilable. Hey! Put out those torches! You might burn some books!
Chris Lemens, GL
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End of Glorantha Digest V3 #265
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