From: David Cake (davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au)
Date: Thu 14 Nov 1996 - 06:16:20 EET
Heres a thought - with regards to whether the Orlanthi (or anyone
else) believed that there were day and nights in the Godtime, what we are
really asking is whether they believed there were days and nights in the
age before the Great Darkness (and BTW - I would have thought the very well
established, in everyones mythology, existence of distinct sequential ages
in the Godtime said something about peoples belief in time). After all, the
great darkness was dark. The sun was not around (or at least not visible).
So for the whole of the Great Darkness, which lasted a long time
(lets say a thousand years, with a degree of error of one order of
magnitude eiether way? that should be uncontroversial hopefully, unless you
deny years, in which case call 'em generations or whatever, pedant) they
had not had 'proper' days and nights. But they remembered them, sort of.
And they probably talked quite a bit about how great it was to have proper
days and nights and so on. And the descriptions of how great it was when
the days worked properly got more and more flowery. So when the sun finally
returned, it was good. But not quite as good as the stories, so eventually,
rather than admit their ancestors had just been embroidering things a bit,
they decided that time before then was somehow different, and even better
than it is now.
I think the only people who have reliable records from before the
Great Darkness that record how the sky was then are probably the Yuthuppan
starseers. The Malkioni and Kralori think they do - but their records
probably originate with the Yuthuppans anyway.
>Greg has said two things: that the gods have no free will to act in
>ways outside their established idioms(Heroquest talk, Melborne Con), and
>that MYSTERY is the most important aspect in Gloranthan stories.
Most of my recent rantings probably originate from that my
impression of that talk.
And mystery is not only important for all the obvious reasons, but
its also a convenient out for anything you don't like. You may accept that
the gods have no free will as part of your cosmology. But hey, every so
often it may appear that they have done something outside their normal
idiom, and you don't need to work out why.
Jane Williams
>Yelmic POV on time as opposed to Orlanthi.
I was going to comment more on this, but Pam has put it better than
I would have. Basically, the Yelmics think Yelm should sit in the sky
maintaining the universe, only stirring from his perfect routine to correct
wickedness ocassionally. He did this before, and does it now, but there was
a time when he didn't and it was terrible.
The closest they would come to the Compromise would be something
like the Submission, when all the rebel gods admitted that Yelm was great
and they shouldn't upset him too much in case he leaves again.
Nick is only interested in Orlanthi ideas of time, and says of the true
nature of time..
>Who cares? Not me, that's for sure. The question "What is the *real* truth"
>doesn't matter to me, only what people believe at the moment.
Well, I think some Orlanthi probably do believe what you say about
Time being timeless in the Godtime (largely Lhankor Mhy's that are starting
to drift in Godlearnerish directions), and other Orlanthi (including your
average hill barbarian godi) says thats bollocks, and if really pressed
starts quoting the stuff Peter has been quoting from KOS and saying that he
doesn't understand how you can have generations without time, etc. I don't
think the Orlanthi are the sort of culture that thinks its important to
come to a concensus about this sort of question. When the godi do get
together, its not at the third ecclesiastical council of Orlanthi to
discuse abstruse theology, its to shout a lot, invoke Orlanths great magics
against their enemies, settle ongoing arguments between tribes, and foment
armed rebellion.
In other words, I think if you are trying to find a single
definitive answer to what the Orlanthi believe about Time, you are doomed.
A lot of them wouldn't understand the question, and certainly wouldn't
think it was worth argueing over. While I general I agree with Peter, I
don't think that means all the Orlanthi see it his way.
[the Emperor]
>IMO, the original sense (in the Orlanthi PoV) meant tyrant or
>strongman which then acquired their imperial meaning when they
>came into contact with the Pelorians.
Yeah. I think Orlanth rebelled against the original tyrannical
ruler of the universe - a common myth pattern (compare Zeus/Cronos, Odin
etc. killing Ymir?, etc). It became the Emperor when the Orlanthi and Dara
Happans met around the First Council and where at peace long enough to
compare myths.
Cheers
David
------------------------------
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 16:53:48 EEST