From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Tue 19 Nov 1996 - 15:02:50 EET
Oliver Bernuetz:
================
>Now a question. Correct me if I'm wrong Peter but from what I've read you
>seem to believe that what a society's elites and intellectuals believe is
>all that's important. What about the great unwashed masses?
The unwashed masses do hold different beliefs than that of the
literai. I was merely objecting to the assumption that the
literai know the belief is false but conceal the truth from
unwashed masses. More likely the literai have given up on
educating the unwashed masses. However some beliefs do change
but these are most relevant to politics rather than natural
philosophy (ie the faith of the king is more relevant to the
peasant than the shape of the earth).
>Now another question. Working from the supposition that in our world the
>only way you can accept a religion is through faith (if this is even true)
>what would it be like to live in a world like Glorantha where there is
>tangible evidence of the divine? It would really IMO be a different kettle
>of fish than our own situation.
Not really. I don't really see tangible evidence of the divine as
Merely the fact that a Godi prayed to Orlanth for a thunderbolt
being a different kettle of fish. The impartial observer would
view the beliefs of various religions (Malkionism, Orlanthi Theism,
Praxian Shamanism etc) as being merely beliefs.
and was rewarded does not prove that what the Godi believes about
Orlanth is true (or whether 'Orlanth' has a concrete existance
independant of his worshippers). All the impartial observer can
conclude is that the Godi has interacted with the Otherworld using
the spiritual beliefs of his culture to call down a lightning bolt.
If he had tools to observe the Otherworld, then he would see some
evidence of the Godi's belief system there. But he cannot disprove
the hypothesis that the section of the Otherworld that he observed
was created by the Godi's culture.
What does not matter is whether the beliefs are true but whether
Thus I do not view Glorantha in terms of independant gods but rather
they actually _work_. A RW medieval alchemist's recipes work
(the mundane ones anyway) regardless of the fact that his worldview
bears little or no resemblence to modern chemistry. His beliefs
are modified by the results of his recipes. A gloranthan magic
worker is in the same boat IMO. The Godi's faith in his god is
reinforced (but not confirmed by the impartial observer's standards)
by the fact that his magic works - he prays to Orlanth and his wounds
are healed, he can talk to Orlanth and recieve advice (but then
everybody has voices in their head) and so on. If the Godi's magic
is not successful then he might modify his behaviour (mend his ways)
or change to a new religion.
in terms of cultural groups interacting with their environment and
each other. It makes better history for starters IMO.
Pam Carlson:
============
>Quite arguable, IMO. In the RW, most western religions make a big deal
>about faith, but I don't think many others do.
Well since reincarnation is pretty much an article of faith
for buddhism and hinduism (they don't make sense otherwise),
I don't think this statement is true. Faith is about belief
in things which are by definition unprovable (or unfalsifiable).
Philip Hibbs:
=============
>This is a point that I try to get across to my players - that a
>sorceror certainly *believes* in a god, in that (s)he accepts
>that it has some form of existence, but that is distinct from
>*worshipping* a god or believeing that that god had merit.
Some sorcerers and wizards may believe this. Others do not and
view the god as a collective hallucination of natural forces.
>Did the God Learners' mythical meddling only affect the areas that
>they could mundane-travel to?
For the most part yes. Much of their meddling was confined to regions
that they could control. This was done by forcing their subjects to
do such and such in their holy rites or face the tappers.
They could cause mythic happenings to occur in other peoples territory
(notably the Two Year Winter and the battle of Tanian's victory) but
such undertakings are hideously expensive and were only used for a
certain purpose in mind (ie to disrupt the enemy to gain the upper
hand in some area).
So although they could have buggered up Orlanthi mythology, the
influence of Orlanth and the Orlanthi at the time begs the question
of why? If they did it to get at somebody else, then this presumes
the God Learners had foresight that was lacking in so many of the
other things that they did (Sea of Flame and Goddess Switch).
- --Peter Metcalfe
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