Leonardo and Swine Fever!

From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Mon 13 Jan 1997 - 03:38:40 EET


Michael Cule:
=============

>I was wondering about the word Hnuschen in the shower this
>morning. (What do you mean I have a sad life?) Where does this word
>come from? It is used to describe all the animal-totem cultures of Glorantha
>but where does it originate?

I think it was the name the Western (ie Ralios and Fronela) Hsunchen
Tribes had for Hykim.

Stephen P Martin:
=================

>But, as the Dara Happan Emperors Ovosto and Orogoros found out, such
>questing without the proper compassion (in this case, a reasonable
>cognate for intent) leads to disaster.

What did they Heroquest for?

Joerg Baumgartner:
==================

[Carefully checking post for trolls while extracting hook from mouth]

>My main reason for disbelieving a 1600 year old non-Brithini are just that:
>there shouldn't be any non-Brithini (or non-Vadeli) humans from before the
>Dawn around. If that were the case, I am sure it would have been mentioned
>about Leonardo...

The Sorcerers of Orathorn who fought at the Nights of Horrors? The
Old One who leads Dorasta Shrine? But I don't believe that Leonardo
is _before_ the Dawn. Shortly afterwards (ie within the firest
century) suits me just fine.

>For my ideas of the history, it works better if the Leftarm
>Islanders had found a non-theistic philosophy by the time the Lightbringer
>deities return triumphantly - an impact which should have convinced even the
>disillusioned Leftarmers.

But Atheistic religions don't have to have one source. The Atheistic
Jainists of India did not get their philosophy from Anximander. The
Left Arm People, I agree, certainly found their philosophy during the
Great Darkness but I do not see why it should be Brithini in the light
of the statement that 1) it was a rabid atheistic faith in the first
age (a term which I've have some difficulty applying to the Brithini)
and 2) they were heavily influenced by the Jrusteli. A comparable RW
example IMO would be the ease of the Phillipines conversion to
Catholicism by the Spanish - this was because they had a native
religion which was similar.

Stephen P Martin:
=================

SPM>>>Remalada is my linguistic attempt to link Ernalda and
>>>Mralota as originally having been the same deity.

Me>>I don't think this is credible. The Remalada occurs in Saird where
>>the Orlanthi were originally Goat and Sheep Herders.

>Actually, we have no idea where Remalada comes from -- all GRoY says is
>that she is a foreign goddess.

No it doesn't. Remalada is one of the contestants for the hand of
Yelm and only Molanni claims that she is the foreign goddess and that
to choose anybody else would be incest. If Remalada is Ernalda, then
she comes from Saird as Greg has stated.

>>Mralota is the
>>Goddess of Pigs and comes from Maniria where the Haralding Orlanthi
>>there were hsunchen swine-cum-pig herders.

>Except that Mralota is actually only mentioned in relation to Balazar.
>The deity mentioned for Maniria is Mralot. I can easily discount this
>latter bit as being written during the God Learner phase at Chaosium, and
>that therefore the pig deity worshiped there may be differently named.

Mralot is the _male_ form of Mralota. And as for the God Learner
phase, perhaps you should remember that the God Learners took the
names of the gods from the people they encountered. The Horse God
in God Learner Canon is not Hippoi nor Gamara but Galanin who was
the God of the Ralian Pony Riders. Likewise the God Learners
called the Lion God not Durbaddath as he is known in Dara Happa
but Basmol who was the lion god of the Basmoli. Given these
circumstances and noting that Maniria was controlled by the God
Learners and Zarkos wasn't, the GL canonical Pig Goddess would be
Mralota named after the Goddess found among the Pig Worshippers
there.

As for the Mralot worship in Balazar, you forget the fact that
the worship of Mralota may have _diffused_ from its manirian
homeland by the actions of the EWF or some other polity to have
arrived at Balazar in the third age. One of the Citadel Kings

has a sign saying 'No Pigs' on the gate of his citadel - which
is stated to be a result of his votanki hunter origins. This
would be curious if Mralota had been worshipped in Zarkos/Balazar
since time immemorial!

>I would suggest, given that Ernalda definitely has pig links in Orlanthi
>society

Which may be a result of her having _absorbed_ pig-goddess functions
rather than being a pig goddess originally. Ernalda also has serpent
links and grain links too yet she is not a serpent. And you ignore
the fact that the earliest 'Orlanthi' in Peloria herded goats and
ordeeds, *not* pigs.

>and that Ramalia is so close to Ralios, that the deity worshiped
>there is a remnant of a Ralian hsunchen tribe.

Why should it be? Not every Hsunchen Tribe comes from Ralios.

>Also, I would imagine the name of the deity is similar to
>Ramalia, rather than Mralot.

I disagree about the name given that even if it is a God
Learnerism, it would still be the name of the God there
because the God Learners have nowhere else to get a closer
name.

>Since Greg has said in GRoY that Ernalda is a form of the earth goddess
>known in Saird, and since we know Mralota is worshiped in Balazar, I
>think it would be extremely unlikely that the two goddesses were _not_
>originally the same.

Except you are conflating in _time_ here. We have records of the
Ernalda from the First Age and before. What we do not have is
details of her being worshipped as a Pig Goddess nor do we have
records of her being called Mralota. Finally we do not have
hard evidence of Mralota being worshipped in First Age Peloria.

>>Furthermore the Haraldings
>>were originally non-Orlanthi who acquired Orlanthi "ways" late compared
>>to the Vingkotlings (cf the KoS where Harand's ancestry is snubbed in
>>favour of descent from Orlanth). Hence I find it difficult to believe
>>that both tribes originally worshipped the same goddess.

>I doubt this. First of all, I think the Haraldings and Harandings may be
>different people [...] But, they are definitely as Orlanthi as any of
>the other Orlanthi peoples. ALL Orlanthi tribes snub the ancestors of
>their enemy tribes.

Check out the geneology. The descent from Orlanth is traced through
King Drolgar (sp?) Orlanthsson down to Harand's _mother_. Combine
this with the Tribe being called the Harandings and _not_ the
Drolgarlings indicates that the Harandings have *subsumed* the
'Orlanthi' tribe of the Drolgarlings. Compare this to the Vingkot's
daughters where the tribes they founded where still reckoned as
Vingkotlings. Hence I feel justified in claiming that the Harandings
acquired Orlanthi 'ways' *late* compared to the Vingkotlings.

Given that the Haraldings/Harandings differ by only one letter and live
in the same region makes it probable that the two peoples are the same
people and the difference is due to accents - the Heortlings call them
the Harandings while they themselves call themselves the Haraldings.
Otherwise we would have to postulate that Wien and Vienna are two
seperate cities for example (or even that Remelada and Ernalda are
seperate goddesses for that matter).

- --Peter Metcalfe

------------------------------

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