Basko, Elmal vs. Heler, Elven Yelmalio

From: Stephen P Martin (ilium@juno.com)
Date: Wed 15 Jan 1997 - 09:02:33 EET


David Cake <davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au>
 Tricksters
>
>On the subject of Kazkurtum,
>though, its worth bearing in mind the relationship to the Black Sun, or
at
>least the figure of Basko, who links the two. I feel that the Black Sun
and
>the figure of Kazkurtum are linked in some way, perhaps only by the
figure
>of Basko, which may even be a God Learnerism (though why God Learnerisms
in
>areas never visited by them and presumably of little interest,I don't
>know). But I'll skip lightly over how the Black Sun fits in ( a question
>I'm very interested in), and concentrate on Basko.

When Greg was working on GRoY, he initially used the name Basko. He later
changed this to Kazkurtum. I believe this change was based on a decision

that Basko is a Kralorelan deity (from KoI), NOT a Dara Happan one. The
use of Basko in any story mentioning Yelm is a misnomer, IMO. Note that
when I used this story in Drastic, I changed Basko to a compromise name
between Basko and Kazkurtum. This was done intentionally.

Since I believe the Sun in Kralorela is the last Emperor who ruled during
the Darkness, who became the Sun at the Dawn, I would imagine Basko was
HIS opposition. Thus, Basko would be the Black Sun, but would not be
_Yelm's_ shadow -- that is Kazkurtum.

Nick Brooke <100270.337@compuserve.com>
Light Sons and Pigs and Stacked RunePower and Stale Wind
>
>And what's this rubbish about "Elmal being less martial than Heler", eh?
>Elmal is the Loyal Thane Guarding the Light, who possesses his own
weapons
>and military gear, fought Orlanth when they first met, and is left to
guard
>the stead in Orlanth's absence. Heler has none of these attributes, and
is
>*known* not to be a warrior (he never carries weapons).
>
By less martial, I meant that he is not an aggressive deity -- he does
not attack, he defends. And Barntar does this as well, to defend his
farm. Though I do note the Sun Dome Templars ARE best used in defense --

I may have spoken too soon.

As for Heler being a martial deity, I am getting tired of arguing this
point. In the very first place he was ever mentioned (WF 13), Heler is
said to be a martial deity (though not a very effective one, I will
admit). And of course he carries weapons -- every male Orlanthi does. And
so do many of the women -- even Ernalda once carried a shield, for gods'
sakes!

>FWIW, I *still* don't see much that's "Elvish" about the Sun Dome
Templars,
>and remain unconvinced. Find me one good reason; just saying that "Light
>Sons sound Elvish to me" ain't good enuf. Especially if it leads you
down
>the blind alley of positing a non-martial (Light Priests only) Elmal
cult
>at the core of Monrogh's militant Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass.
>
I never said "Light Sons" sounds elvish. KoS mentions that Monrogh talked
to the Elf Lords on his quest to find Yelmalio (pg. 197, second
paragraph). KoS than goes on to say that Yelmalio was already known to
the elves, the deity worshiped by them as their Sun God. How much clearer
can it be?

Now, if you believe Yelmalio existed back in the First Age, as some do,
you could postulate that the Orlanthi Yelmalio cult was imported by the
elves. We know that some elves worship Humakt (cf Elder Secrets, Cameos),
so this is not too much to consider. But there is no continual Yelmalio
presence among the Orlanthi from what KoS says. And, it more or less says
that previous worships _towards_ Yelmalio were _not_ successful -- only
Monrogh completed the quest, as near as I can tell.

>A straight question: just what is there about the Praxian Sun Dome
Temple
>(as described in "Sun County") that makes you leap up and cry: "Aha! A
>clear sign of elvish influence!"? If we have to bin one of the few
recent
>RQ supplements in order to entertain your theory, I suggest a rethink is
in
>order.
>
As I said at length in my Cold Sun article, written mostly as a
reassurance to you MOB, KoS does NOT "bin" Sun County. It merely requires
that we evaluate what certain parts of that book mean.

>Re: Mralota
>
>> It's less likely that Balazar stole her idol from his own lands (he
>> wouldn't need to steal it)
>
>Balazar was a foreigner, not a Votanki. But it does look unlikely he
nicked
>it from the now-pigless Votanki, what with Yalaring's prejudice an' all.
Of
>course, common sense rarely derails Stevie's theories, so we may be in
for
>the long haul with this one...
>
Nick, I was going to keep fighting until you said this. Rather reminds me
of the time Charlie Krank proved I was a God Learner by pointing out that
I denied being one. I couldn't argue with that, and now have to settle
for claiming that I am a _good_ God Learner!

I concede that Mralota did not come from Balazar, though I really meant
Saird in general -- I started fighting about details when I should have
been defending my general theory. I still maintain that Mralota and
Ernalda could have originated as the same deity. Though it is equally
possible Mralota "emerged" independently from Ernalda, both to the north
and to the south of DP.

<PMichaels@aol.com>
Uz Trickster
>
>I don't think the trolls use humor as such a "release mechanism." For
this
>to happen troll comedy would need to create social bonds, and I don't
>think it does. It is a HUMAN thing to feel closer to someone after
sharing
>a laugh together at something comic. I think trollish laughter is a
simple
>personal expression of enjoyment which does not have the same social
>effects it does for humans.

I think Trollpak's brief descriptions support this viewpoint.

>What makes trolls feel closer to one another
>is to participate in a violent act together, during which they may
laugh.

Sounds rather like a lot of the people I knew in the US Marine Corps.

>But even if I'm wrong and humor is used to moderate conflict, so what?
>
>Violence plays an important part in human interactions, but as a race we

>don't consider it to make us human. Instead we believe that it is
comedy
>which says something important about the human condition. But trolls
>are non-human, and I think part of their inhumanity is that they
consider
>violence to make them trolls.
>
I would say you are showing a "politically correct", Euro-centric bias
here. Aren't there people on earth for whom violence, not humor, is the
defining quality? Don't we venerate warriors more than comedians? How
many more people collect guns than joke books?

>

Stephen Martin
ilium@juno.com
- -----------------------------------------------
The Book of Drastic Resolutions
drastic@juno.com

------------------------------


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