more obscure stuff

From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Mon 20 Jan 1997 - 07:50:09 EET

Carl Fink:

Me>>One could also adopt the trick of actually being swallowed, resisting
>>the digestion and cut yourself out from the inside (Sir Ethilrist does
>>this to Hungry Jack and Argrath does this to the Devil).

>I suspect that surviving the Baths of Nelat quest would be helpful
>here - one mundane result might be immunity to all acids, including
>digestive ones, even of Dragons or the Devil.

Good point. I always thought the myths implied that Nelat was the
toughest of them all - so if you could survive Nelat, you could
survive anything. Was the quest for the Well of Wisdom yet another
Being swallowed by a monster motif? Was Nelat the spirit of digestive
juices that Orlanth encountered while in the 'belly' of 'Leviathan'

Giles Hill:

>Several times now when talk/debate/argument has turned to HQ's I've heard
>the Lead Cross HQ mentioned. I'm aware that it involves a Humakti killing
>a healer; but would someone care to explain the myth behind it, I presume
>there's a life/death conflict going on but some details please.

The story is supposedly given in Plunder! but I can't recall the

Thomas Doniol-Valcroze:

[Argrath summoning Wyverns or Griffins at Corflu]

>So, my first question is: Was it Wyverns or Griffins?

It was the wyverns who were present at Corflu.

>Griffins seem unlikely to me because of their link with the Yelmalio
>cult. BTW, are Griffins related with Dragons? They do not seem like a
>draconic race to me.

They are not. Griffins are related to Horses, Birds and Hippogriffs.

>But Wyverns seem unlikely too, because of their links with Lunars.
>Unless, of course, if it was the Lunars' Wyverns that Argrath summoned
>to his help.

>My second question is: Isn't it strange that draconic creatures came
>to help Argrath while he was defending a Giant's Cradle? I always
>thought that Giants and Dragons were old foes.

It is strange and the published cradle scenario (or Mad Prax beyond
Thunderdome) tells what actually happened. The Wyverns were actually
_opposed_ to Argrath at Corflu - he used Sylphs to fly around in like
a good orlanthi. There is also a contigent of beaked dragonewts which
assualts the Cradle at one point which is a relic of the Giant versus
Dragon Wars IMO. Many years afterwards when the Saga was being composed
people remembered the fact that when Argrath defended the Cradle, there
were wyverns. Since Argrath had draconic powers, it was natural for
them to assume that he _summoned_ the Wyverns. It's a clear pointer
to those who have seen the cradle adventure that Argrath's Saga (or
the entire book for that matterr) is only partially true.

>And my third question is: Has the Lunar assault on the Cradle been
>really described somewhere? Has it been made playable as an adventure?
>Somehow, I am afraid the answer will be something like: "Of course,
>it's in the Pavis boxed set"...

You guessed it the first time. Sorry.

Stephen P Martin:

Me>>But given that Drang was also the
>>Diamond Dragon, does that means that either the Dwarves or the
>>Caladralanders were also participants in the Dragon?

>I like the Caladraland aspect, since Caladraland _was_ intended to be the
>erupting breath of the dragon (Genertela Book), very useful when you are
>in a battle. I tend to doubt the dwarf aspect, as I don't think many of
>the Elder Races except the (trolls and dragonewts) played an important
>part in the EWF.

The chief problem is that Caladraland was controlled by the God
Learners up until the closing. So if the contest between Alakoring
and Drang took place then, the Caladralander theory is flawed...

>If Drang is partly a dragon, and partly the Ingolf Dragonfriend group,
>what could that say about it? Did Ingolf summon the dragon, or was _he_
>the dragon?

I don't think Ingolf was part of the Diamond Storm Dragon. His
dragon magic was manifesting draconic body parts at various times
and he is said to be healing those devastated by Alakoring.
Besides some other Orlanthi was higher ranked than Ingolf and the
cult of Orlanth Dragonfriend was his creation.

>Can we make a correspondence between the Eight Planets and the members of
>the Celestial Court, one that would satisfy the God Learners? Can we
>strip away the Dara Happisms enough to determine exactly who the Eight

The only one I am sure about is Shargash/Tolat being Kargan Tor.
The Planet Uleria is another possibility but she is known to the
Orlanthi as Mastakos so is the planet the original Uleria, or
is it Larnste or even Ratslaf (given that Uleria's high holy days
are disorder related). Muddying the waters even further is
Plentonius's statement that she is a new planet not seen in the
old world. I however believe that any 'new' planets are merely
old ones whose previous nature is unrecognized.

It has occured to me that if Entekos is Glorantha then from Cults
of Prax, she is also Ginna Jar and Arachne Solara. Interesting
in the light of what happened at the Sunstop methinks. There's
also another legend which speaks of Kargan Tor abandoning his post
which allowed the Devil to enter the Celestial Palace and abuse
the Empress Glorantha. I wonder if 'the Devil' is actually
Umatum for a similar myth takes place in the Entekosiad with
'Daak' abusing Entekos.

>>Moreover the fact that the Giants are humanoid effectively dates
>>them to after the appearance of the Man Rune rather than the Dragon
>>Age (which I view as akin to a Dinosaurian Age upon Earth).

>I don't think this is correct -- their humanoid image is only a current

What other forms did they take? Genert who is considered to
be a Giant is depicted in humanoid form. Gonn Orta is also

>KoS talks about the Age of Giants and the First War, and the
>entities then were more than gods. They are described as "giants"
>because that is how humans think -- they make everything into
>humanoids, including their gods. But, just as the elder dragons
>are not really draconics, neither are the elder giants necessarily

Yes, but these are old myths. Where did the humans get them
from? If they weren't around, then I would expect the myths to
be very polished as they would have recieved the myths from some
other source. Yet the myth concerned are creaking with age.
The Shell Horse, for example, seems a strange artifact to be
the cause of the First War.

But if the myths took place when the humans were hanging around
on the fringes, then to all intents and purposes, the myth
would look the same. The Age of Giants is thought to be very
early for that is the earliest age the (local) human mythology
would recall. I don't see why they have to have specialized
knowlege of obscure wars fought at the beginning of creation.

>So, I agree that this battle really did occur 'when the goddess
>Glorantha was but a child' (as Wyrms Footnotes 14 put it).

I interpreted that as a poetic reference.

- --Peter Metcalfe


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