Monsters and Shargash

From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Fri 31 Jan 1997 - 01:03:09 EET

Simon Phipp:

>Peter Metcalfe (being his normal, nice, polite self):

I would be even more polite but then someone criticized me (wrongly
IMHO) for treating an off-the-cuff statement as just that and not
as something which had plenty of non-apparent thought put into it.

>There is a difference between being swallowed by Hungry Jack and
>being swallowed by a True Dragon, in my opinion. The idea of being
>able to cut oneself out of a True dragon is still silly, in my mind.

As opposed to one who merely stands in the mouth of a dragon before
he tears its head off? Or one who merely lets the dragon enwrap
itself around him before breaking its back? Are these just as
silly or what? True Dragons are just like any other 'monster' in
Glorantha. The key feature of the myth is how the hero defeats
a monster. These dragon-slaying myths would work against Hungry
Jack, the Crimson Bat, the Mother of Monsters, Tyrannopisces Rex,
Moby Dick, a River God or even a Giant.

>> Ogres are right-handed (Dragonewts are sinster) and are clearly
>> related to the man rune.

>Ogres are Chaotic.

Which does not in anyway make them not related to the man rune
which is what I presume you meant to imply.

>I was under the impression that all Chaots were
>left-handed, therefore Ogres are left-handed, being Chaotic.

Would be a wonderfully easy way to detect ogres. 'Wait a minute!
You're a southpaw!! DIE chaos slime!'

David Cake:

Me>>The idea of a division between Shargash and Yelm seems to me ugly.

> The idea of non-distinction between the two - oh, yeah, Shargash is
>just Yelm wearing a mask - seems equally ugly. They are separate deities
>from the same pantheon related in many ways.

You are confusing between the mythic belief the initiate has of the
relationship between the two gods and the existance of seperate cults
for the two. I am talking _solely_ about the former.

Go back to the philosophers description which you tritely denounced as
something only believed by philosophers (and which 'mask' was nowhere
mentioned) and read it again. Yelm has devolved his war powers onto
Shargash to make them more accesible to his worshippers. But since
Shargash is now _outside_ Yelm, they are seperate cults and to get the
war powers, one has to go to Shargash. But Shargash is still _part_
of Yelm. Worshipping Shargash does not allow access to the entire
panoply of Yelmic truths. I have brought up RW examples of similar
relationships but you have not addressed them. Or perhaps you think
that merely worshipping one saint allows access to the entire pantheon?

>>The whole relationship of Shargash with Yelm is the stuff of Myth
>>and is _known_ to every Alkothi from the very start. It is replayed
>>every year. It is the equivalent of the Ring of Orlanth or the
>>Necklace of Pamalt.

>Just because she's part of the ring, doesn't mean that
>people think Pamalts wife is just Pamalt wearing a mask.

Of course since the Mask was a _Lunarism_ as I have said before.
But the 'Son of Yelm' filfuls a similar function within Dara
Happan Mythology. Look at the Wyrm Footprints. Hastatus,
Sagittus, Hyraos and Tholm are described as 'Sons of Yelm' in
that they are viewed as manifestations of Yelm. Since Shargash
is also a 'son of Yelm' (cf the GRAY), he is viewed in a _similar_
manner by the Dara Happans. Where else do you think the Lunars
got much of their philosophy from?

- --Peter Metcalfe


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