From: Carlson, Pam (carlsonp@wdni.com)
Date: Tue 01 Apr 1997 - 01:35:00 EEST
Hi All,
Whee! Now I have six dogs. Rosie had three pups, all healthy and
strong. One managed to start nursing within seconds of being born,
before she was even separated from her placenta! There must be a good
myth in that somewhere...
Chris - I liked the notes from Agricola - the ways which elves aould
surprise and confuse humans are interesting for me. Don't forget, many
plants use other species, especially animals, in ways that are
advantageous to both. Flowering plants produce nectar to attract
insects for pollination. Plants produce sweet and nutritious fruits to
entice animals to eat them and spread the seeds in their droppings.
(Some seeds won't ever germinate without first going through an acidic
stomach.)
Therefore, some elves may interact with other species to their mutual
benfit. OTOH, perhaps those Gloranthan plants that have produced elves
- - mobile offshoots - have done so to solve their mobility problems.
Andrew - I've been anjoying the Kalikos icebreaker stories!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----- --------
WARNING: Pelorian Horsefolk discussion follows...
Thanks Alex, Peter, and Joerg (and Jeff "the Vingkotling" Richard) for
your input on the origins and relationships of the Pelorian horse
peoples. A few comments:
AF> (A couple of Cons ago I tried to get Greg to comment on some old
Not surprised at all.... what use do marsh dwelling rice farmers have
throwaway note (RQ Companion, maybe)
implying that DH he gotten sun worship from the Pentans. Oops. (I
think his "comment" was to issue a Mysterious Greg Smile, nod sagely,
and say something like "It did kinda suggest that, didn't it?")
for horses, sun worship, and patriarchies?
SF>Isn't Torang relatively Pelandan-ish anyway, from what little we know
about
its language? All the Paradisial Poseurs had rather Pelandan-sounding
names anyway,
I don't know. Those Rhinliddi are a puzzlement to me. Riding large,
But anyway, I had assumed that because Rufelza was from Torang, New
predatory birds over grasslands, apparently the terror of the Osliran
farmers and river folk -they seem a distinct folk from the (relatively)
peaceful Pelandan farmers. The Janarong horsemen exterminated their
birds (easy to do if they lay vulnerable nests like ostiches do), and
the Dara Happan emperors were very concerned with conquering and
controlling Rhinliddi. Their presence in Dara Happa seems older then the
horse peoples, because in the old stories of the arming of Murharzarm,
his mount was an augner, not a horse. And "Paradisial" sounds more
grandiose to me then the old Pelandan descriptions. Perhaps Brightface
was one of this lot.
Pelorian might have a higher porportaion of theTorangi dialect than
would otherwise be expected.
PM> I forgot to add that the Hyalorings IMO are Pentans rather than
Zarkosite Pelorians having been gifted the City of Nivorah by
Emperor Manarlavus in return for suppressing the Rikestings.
The Roofer? But Nivorah was way south of the dome. And I'm not sure
Nivorah was ever a true city. I think the DH's may have assumed that
the Hyalorings came from a city - they were a great people, they must
have had a city...
PM>Why do you think that the East Pelorian Farmers are Theyalans? They
never
got that far nor ruled Peloria for large periods of time.
By East Pelorians, I mean the Sairdites and Zarkosites. The Zarkosites
(of 300ST, anyway) seem to be Theyalan - they marked Khordavu with
tattoos, a practice foreign to Pelandans. They herded goats and used
slings. (Aren't goats still accepted in Aggar?) And the Sairdites
seemed to be full of Vingkotling tribes, home to Harmast and that lot.
The Balazaring do seem to be Pelorians linguistically. I think the
Theyalan Zarkosites and Sairdites pushed up from the south very early in
the Dark Ages.
PM(?)> But I think that the Horse Riders that ruled Peloria were
Zarkosite Pelorians rather than Pentans having picked up the horses
from stray pentan herds near Zarkos (where the Jenarong genealogy
said they came).
Please pardon me for not having maps at work. Is not Zarkos
I do like the idea of Antirius being a local, leader form of Turos. It
considerably south of the Arcos Valley? (I know, they sound similar.)
Jeff and I worked out that the Janorong, chariot folk with a fondness
for stars, came out of th Arcos Valley, up near Pent. The Hyaloring
came from the south, had Vingkotling names, and rode horseback, not on
chariots. And the two hated each other. The Hyaloring only ruled DH
for two emperors - Vuranostum and his son - then the Jenarong came back.
fits well with my pet (but rapidly disintegrating) theory of Yelm as
merely "Lodril Rex".
>This implies that the World Council got *its* chronology wrong which
makes it difficult for me to accept. Notablely the date of the
missions to Peloria and their susequent 'disappearance' occur when the
world council has already kicked the nomads out.
Which nomads? There were two distict MAIN groups - Janarong & Hyaloring
- - and then I think the Jenarong split into factions. I think the world
council kicked out the nomad traditionalists, leaving the sedentary
Jenarongs in charge. These early emperors still had copies of the old
"How to Rule Through Blood and Terror" textbook, and they responded with
typical Jenarong hospitality to the World Council missionaries. (Maybe
the World Council Theyalans reminded the Jenarong of those despicable
Hyaloring?)
>But the Khordavu dynasty doesn't have any reverence to horses.
It's not mentioned explicitly, but by then the horse is probably taken
for granted as an instrument of power. Note that Eusibus, a
contemporary of Khordavu, is one of only two emperors NOT listed as
either a chariot or a horse emperor. (Coronated with the old Ovosto
rights, he was probably an indigenous, proto - Dara Happan, whatever
that was.) But I digress.
PM> Given that Antirius has roots in Dara Happa,
IMO Antirius would have been thought to be the Sun at the Dawn and
not as a result of Hyaloring occupation.
Good point.
>Nice if true, but the names of some of the Jenarong Emperors are good
Pelorian names.
Good point and excellent examples. But Joerg is right: A Jenoarong
horse lord might call himself "Bubba the Magnificant", but the later
historians who talked to Pelandan/Dara Happan speakers are going to get
the guys' popular name, like "Eats Women". (Who would name HIMSELF "Son
of Evil?)
OTOH, you bring up a good point - those Dara Happan emperor names have
quite a lot in common with old Pelandan. Therefore, Dara Happan must be
similar to old Pelandan, or contain a large part of it. (Maybe like
English, where common words are old Saxon/Low German, fancier words are
old French?)
Unless, the Jenarongs/Pentan are also Pelorian? Does G:G say anything
Option 3 - Addi interpreted old Pelandan wordsdirectly into Dara
I'm afraid I'm going to have to recant and say that Dara Happan is
about Pentan? I had the impression that Pent was settled by escaped
Jenarongs, and that there were no humans there before. As to why the
Rhinliddians didn't go there - perhaps the trolls there kept raiding
their nests? Not until the the completely mobile horse was domesticated
was Pent liveable. (Wild theory, but it makes sense.)
Happan, and the old Pelandan words have not seen print yet. But that's
no fun.
mostly Pelandan, with some Janarong mixed in.
> the Saird Hyalorings effectively disappear after
110 ST as a result of their expulsion from Saird and the
subsequent extermination by Huradabba.
What of the fabulous Theyalan horse tradition of Scylila?
>Saird Hyalorings know of Hyalor as do the Pent Nomads. But the
Horse Lords of Dara Happa don't know of any relationship with
Hyalor.
Hmm.... Perhaps some Hyaloring also went to Pent. They certainly
didn't leave a lasting impression on Dara Happa.
More evidence: funerary customs. The Hyaloring, like the Grazers,
exposed their dead on platforms in the wind. The Jenarong and the Dara
Happan leaders consume their dead with fire.
I CAN see the origins of the Pentans cattle scism going back to the
JB>I admit that I am a fan of migration theories in the origin of
Janarong and the Hyaloring, though. I think the Jenarong did heard
cattle, or at least picked them up in Peloria.
peoples, but
>to me the migration pattern of the Hyalorings is clear - out of Sacred Prax
>into Vingkotling lands, and on into the Pelorian lowlands.
I don't think the Prax part is relevant for the Pelorian end of things
- - well, maybe so. I think the Hyaloring came from Saird/Scylilla. Greg
has just written a bit on Gloranthan horses, and he has the Hylor breed
of Scylilla as the fastest, most magical horse in Glorantha. They do
not breed true if removed from Scylila. (The Grazer pony is the second
best, but will not breed true to non-Grazers.) There is something
special about Scylilla and horses. There is didly-squat about horses in
Prax.
Besides, I once asked Greg at a con if the Hyaloring came from Prax, and
he emphatically denied it. Peter gives other good reasons why Hyalorings
do not seem to have much in common with Praxians.
PM>My evidence for the migration of the Hyalorings into Saird stems
from the Entekosiad. .... It can be inferred that the
Hyalorings are not in Saird at this time or else Gartemirus would
have heard about it - he is not suprised by the appearance of the
Zarkosite for instance.
Hmm... or that the man on a horse is from the northeast, beyond the
birdfolk of Rhinliddi, (Arcos). He may not have known about them, never
having been beyond the fearsome bird people. If the ritual involved
summopning a person from each of the four quarters, then the Northeast
quarter would have to be accounted for in a way other than the birdfolk.
Zarkos was the southeast.
Enough for now.
Pam
------------------------------
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #306
*******************************
RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark
of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material,
unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the
author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to
excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for
electronic retrieval.
Send electronic mail to Majordomo@erzo.org with "help" in the body of
the message for subscription information on this and other mailing
lists.
WWW at http://rider.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 16:58:28 EEST