subjectivity?

From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Fri 16 May 1997 - 08:05:15 EEST


Remster:
========

>It seems to me that if deities are subjective in
>Glorantha, they're nothing but constructs of the desires and cultural
>needs of their followers.

Nobody has been saying in this thread that the Gods are subjective. The
cultural viewpoint of the gods are subjective but this is not the
same thing.

>However, the muddle-muddle and vague arguements of the
>subjectivists rob Glorantha of what makes it special - the unique
>personalities of the deities and they're agendas and objectives.

Muddle-muddle and vague arguements, eh? Well perhaps you could
explain in crystal clear terns what the objectives of Orlanth
is? Explain why devout Orlanthi were supporting the God Project and
the EWF in the light of current Orlanthi opinion that those ways are
bad. Surely all these pious Orlanthi had to do was to divine to their
god and see what they were doing was wrong?

Glorantha is *more* *than* 'the Gods are Real'. It is about
mythology and magic. By saying that the mythology of the Theists
is completely and utterly true, you are saying that the mythology
of the Malkioni, Kralori, Mostali and even the Lunars among others
are completely and utterly false. And that to me robs Glorantha
of what makes it special.

>Sorry, kids,
>you can't have your cake and eat it, too... either central genertalen
>myth is correct, and followers of some of the other gods don't have the
>entirely right story - ie, the missionaries of the First Council didn't
>get to them, or Glorantha falls apart.

Why do you think the World Council had the One True Mythology and
not say the Kralori, Artmali or the Malkioni? If the Gods are
so powerful surely all they had to do was to pop over to those
various places and reveal the Truth to the myriad people of

Glorantha. But, oh no, they just happened to favour Dragon Pass
for some special reason and decided upon their human followers
to propogate the truth to the others and tell them that they
are wrong. I don't know about you but this seems to plain
boneheaded behaviour for the Gods IMO.

>However,
>in order to function as a Game World, a common structure and actual
>truth to myth must be decided.

Rubbish. One can play adeventures quite happily in glorantha
without knowing what the atctual truth is. All they have to
know is what the gloranthans *believe* to be the truth as of now.
For example, the likelihood that the history of Golden Age Dara
Happa is not what the Dara Happans think it is alters their
behaviour not one whit.

>I feel it's a fallacy to think the certain parts of Glorantha are not
>'part of the compromise'.

Well the Dara Happans disagree, not knowing anything about the
Cosmic Compromise that the barbarians rave about.

>all cultures
>in Glorantha to my best knowledge have some explanation as to why after
>the Darkness the world is different, why the Gods can't interfere in the
>doings of mortal races and what rules define the relationship between
>men and the Gods, and how to interact with the powers of the GodTime.

Who says Gods can't interfere? They can and do. They interfere
because their worshippers believe they can.

>In my opinion, in all Gloranthan Myths, these aspects always play a
>part...

>(1) The existence of a perfect world, before time.

Denied by the Orlanthi and the Doraddi who say this 'perfect
world' was in fact one of tyranny and stagnation.

>(2) A different nature of time, that makes it distinct from 'Time' as
>known today.

Denied by the Dara Happans and the Kralori who claim they use
the same calender that was used when Yelm ruled over their
glorious land.

>(3) The existence of Chaos, and the destruction of the mythic world.

Denied by the Dara Happans who blame the destruction of the mythic
world upon the rebel gods.

>(4) A great act which merges the remnants of the old world and chaos,
>and establishes the order of the world we know today.

Nobody can agree what this great act is. The Dara Happans date
this Great Act _after_ the Dawn.

>Thus, to those who say that certain peoples are not bound by the
>Compromise and who say that their deities can violate with impunity...
>IMO, you're wrong. Gods who walk the earth is quite feasible by the
>terms of the Compromise, since all of these instances are initiated by
>the God's worshippers.

>Has there been any case in Glorantha where a God
>arrives uncalled by worshippers?

Humakt to his worshippers at the moment of their death.

An Orlanthi Worshipper struck dead by a Thunderbolt.

The appearance of Malkion and Hrestol to Saint Rokar.

The appearance of the Real Tower of Yelm in Dara Happa (it
was sent by Yelm).

- --Peter Metcalfe

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