Date: Sun 01 Jun 1997 - 06:59:23 EEST
>From: James Frusetta
>Carolyn McKinney objects to my Elf pogrom.
I don't object, I just don't join in,
>committed a long list of nasty crimes against trolls; trolls have commited
>a long list of nasty crimes against elves. Co-existence is a bitch.
> Let's face it: elves are nasty, murderous Barksists.)
True enough, but the Kitori might just be wierd enough to live in the same
woods with them. The Kitori might brag, that they live in a "haunted
forest". The DakInk think we're crazy! We live with humans, we live right
up on a Chaos wood, we let elves live in our forest, we don't even all of
us live underground, We're Wood Trolls, not UZUZ.
> I wanted to make the point that hiding
>in trees doesn't mean the elves are safe.
>I suppose this means you'll still find Dwarves in Dakori Inkarth, or
>trolls in Greenwood? If they hide?
No, not at all. Neither am I saying Trolls or Dwarves anywhere else in
Glorantha would tolerate the existence of elves, but in the Troll Woods, Uz
have reason to tolerate elves, especially IF the elves in question were in
on this compromise, through the mediation of the earth cult.
>[If you're looking for a loophole to allow Elves to survive, there is one:
I personally don't give a rat's ass if the elves survive. The elves
probably do care to survive though, and might be quite willing to come to
an arrangement whereby they would be neutral to the Kitori. If some ZZ
wanted to kill all the elves he could find, all night, every night, more
power to ya! who cares? I'm just saying that to a Bugherd Kitori elves are
just a fact of life. Like the sun; mysterous, nasty, good for the trees,
best left alone.
>Can elves survive for 1600 years outside an elf forest? Or is there
>(And just a question: why in the world would the elves _stay_ in the Troll
>something special and magical that they _need_ from the elf forest to
>survive and thrive? I'd lean toward the latter, but that's a different
>debate. I'd think elves who live outside an elf forest and all its
>jazzy magics will degenerate over generations.
Good point, maybe they're degenerates. How devo would they have to be in
your opinion to live quietly above the Kitori minding the treetops? Or do
you think it's just not at all possible?
>Woods with all these nasty, horrid uz who want to eat you?
RW humans live lots of places where nasty horrid things eat them. I don't
know about the Rist elves, but life *will* live wherever it *can* live.
Unless the local Uz decide to deliberately exterminate them, or unless some
source says they were never there to begin with, they might agree to a
truce of avoidance to survive.
>(And just a question: why in the world would the elves _stay_ in the Troll
>> Forest fires? seems a bit hysterical to waste so much food,
>If you're talking about a handful of elves hiding in desperation in
>tree-top, you're righ, I wouldn't bother. Forest fires are for stikes
>against dense elf strongholds. If there's none there, I won't bother.
There's none the avarage Kitori Uz would notice, does that count?
>> If the elves are no real threat, then
>> ignore them, harvest them like any other wild crop.
>Elsewhere you argue the Elves will be descending from the trees and
>slaughtering trolls; I'm confused. How many elves are we talking about,
I didn't mean to spook you, the elves aren't coming to get anyone right now;-)
I think the matriarchs could figure out that having a Troll-vs-elf war
would waste alot of Trolls, at the very least it would waste way too much
man-hours of labor, and they would appreciate how the dense treetops keep
out all that nasty sun. Still, they wouldn't be likely to take orders from
a bunch of leaves...
>If there are very few elves, how do they stop me from cutting down
>trees? And if there are _lots_ of elves, to stop me from cutting down
>trees if they want, then they're a Real Threat.
The elves don't stop anyone from doing anything. The earth cultists
understand that it's in everyone's best interest that the forest thrive,
life=food=wealth. They wouldn't be duped by elves claiming to need every
single tree, and would encourage mass attacks if the elves were not
reasonable, and I imagine most all Uz would wreck terrible vengance for
unreasonable/unprovoked killings of Uz, and the Aldryami certainly know
this. Sure, it would seem freaky to outsiders, but I still imagine it as a
point of Kitori pride. Crazy fearless, but not stupid.
>But frex, there's ways aroudn it. Buy the specialty bugs from Grubfarm
>Military Complex. Sterilize them. Send them off to war. In limited
>and non-breeding numbers, shouldn't be a problem. Probably not worth
>it in this case, agreed, but it's available for me if I need it.
> Again, how many elves are we talking
>about? Enough for such extreme measures, or No Real Threat so they can't
>stop me from cutting down trees?
Grubfarm Military complex is honestly WAY more interesting to me than
elves. I really don't know how many elves are in the Troll woods; not
enough to be a real threat to the 6000 humans/Uz of the Kitori tribe, but
way too many to exterminate. 2000? YGMV.
>[And there's potential spin-off from the GMC Tree-Eating Beetle; IMG, some
>Gorakiki temples use bugs to carve and cut wood. Put the tasty paste on
>the part of the wood you want the bug to knaw on; apply additional paste
>as needed. Not exactly a clean cut/carving, but what do trolls care?]
Cool! IMG Kitori use dirt burrowing beetles to dig out their dens, the
tasty paste idea should have numerous beetle related applications. Any more
>> Kitori are big into Ernalda, again, that's a paddlin' IF you could do
>> it...Arn't dryads' moms usually dieties? That's an awful big paddle.
>Fine. Corrupt the Dryads to work for me -- since it's been established
>that elves will fight among themselves, convince portions of the elven
>ecosystem to become hiwis for me. But kill dryads that are actively aiding
>elves, and replace them with friendly dryads. Or demand Voralan-style
Im unclear as to the feasibility of corrupting dryads, or the meaning of
corrupt in this context, make them sabotuers? I imagine all factions within
the Kitori lands to be basically neutral to each other. The idea of earth
cultists allowing dryads to be killed within their domain seems unlikely.
Where do you get friendly replacement dryads? Are they expensive?
>> I'm *really* not trying to imply that Kitori just want to give peace a
>Right. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that killing off the
>elves isn't worth the time and trouble that it'd cost the trolls.
For my Kitori it's not worth exterminating a resource. As far as the
Matriarchs, who are making up the schedule for most Trolls (except ZZ's)
there are better things to do than exterminate a resource. Even if it
presents a minor threat.
<good reasons to hate elves snipped>
Sure, TROLLS HATE ELVES, all over Glorantha, with good reason, I Know. All
the more reason My Kitori are proud to live in a haunted forest. Another
things trolls are good at (besides hating elves with good reason) is doing
what they damn well please as a people, and the Kitori people are not all
Trolls, and are not all the trolls on Glorantha. RW I've heard people from
the south of the US bragging about how they have aligators crawling around
that could (maybe) eat you. But since they generally don't, this is
something to brag about (we're tough, check out our dangerous wildlife)
rather than something to freak out about. The few people that do freak out
about it are tolerated, and slaughter all the gators they can, but wouldn't
be tolerated if they started lighting things on fire, and people wouldn't
take it as a declaration of war if one of those gators ate one of those
>And note, I don't think trolls are that much different from humans. Those
>digesters who say the trolls are cruel, sadistic creatures who delight in
>murder, mayhem and eating their enemies alive (look back in the Troll
>Trickster debate) _would_ say the trolls want to kill all elves,
>automatically, anywhere, until they're all dead dead dead, because that's
>the nature of a troll.
It might even be trickier to keep them as beasts in a wildlife park, and
hunt them for sport, forever.
>And finally -- if you really want Elves in the Troll Woods in your game,
>put them there! MGF take precedence over "correct Glorantha canon" in my
I don't know what MGF is. I'm *Certainly* not trying to insert elves into
your game, just looking for a good reason why they wouldn't be in mine, or
anyone elses. I guess my Troll Woods need them, because when we started
really looking at Trolls + humans + beetles, we didn't want to cram the
place with so many hunter/gather/herders that the woods would look all
sketchy and fake like D&D, or be ecologically doomed. Since there's no
official rule I know of, we figure there Are elves, it's just not widely
known because it's frankly none of anyone's business outside the Kitori.
But maybe they gossip about it in Dakori Inkarth, those crazy Kitori!
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #448
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