Kralorelan Emperors

From: Stephen Martin (
Date: Sun 01 Jun 1997 - 07:33:51 EEST

Peter Metcalfe

>I don't think Godunya was the Emperor at 375 ST. Sandy has a nice
>story about the Passing On of Shang-Hsa May His Name Be Cursed at
>the Sun Stop. Considering the enormities of his reign, the Kralori
>thus regard the Sun Stop as a Happy Occasion.

I wondered if anyone would catch this, that Godunya was the Emperor in
375, according to my conversation with Greg. Not sure I like it, either,
nor can we be sure it won't change, since it seemed to be more or less
off the top of his head rather than already known or worked out with
thought or inspiration.

But, the only actual reference to the Kralorelan Emperor in 375 does not
give us any clue as to whether he was a good or bad emperor, certainly
doesn't talk about any excesses on his part.

Given the hatred with which both Shang-hsa (MHNBC) and the FDR, I always
assumed Shang-hsa (MHNBC) was their False Dragon Emperor. I think I still
prefer that to his being the Emperor who "realized the secrets of the
symbol [the Dragon's Eye], and was liberated from another stage of
consciousness.] (Cults of Terror, pg. 17).

>It seems to me given the above, that after the Sun Stop, the human
>exarchs decided not to conduct an Emperor Hunt (the Sun Stop was a

As with Godunya (who made himself quite evident with the Dragon's
Awakening Shudder and the War in Heaven*), I find it hard to believe that
the exarchs would need to go on an "Emperor Hunt". When one Dragon was
ready to be released from existence, presumably to go on to become a True
Dragon outside of the illusion of Gloranthan reality, I assume another
_Dragon_ would come along to take over the throne. Whether or not the
exarchs wanted this.

>After all we have another Emperor mentioned in Wyrms Footprints (Thang

We do? I don't recall seeing this before -- can you pinpoint the page and
article for me, as it has been a sort of hobby of mine to try to figure
out whether there are any gaps in the list of Emperors -- was Vayobi,
Whose Name Tingles the Tongue, Emperor at the Dawn, or were there
Emperors after him?

* Note that, despite the name, this event apparently has no celestial
events which mirror it, or are mirrored by it. For the Kralori, per Greg,
much of Heaven is actually on earth -- War in Kralorela = War in Heaven.
HGMC (His Glorantha May Change).

>In Umathela, the Lord of the World's knowlege survived the
>Closing until his destruction at the hands of an Elf Army
>in 1020 ST. In Fonrit, a God Learner Fleet is reported
>destroyed in Koraru Bay in 1077 ST more than a century after
>the Closing (IMO it was probably based in Goan).

Maybe they were experimenting, trying to break or sidestep the Curse?

But enough of this -- I am merely trying to suggest that we cannot ASSUME
that the Closing was _in fact_ originated by Zzabur as a curse on the
waertagi, or on anyone else, just because two Gloranthan individuals
state that it was (only two names are given in discussions about the

Closing, that I can recall -- all others are RQ histories, which are
suspect at best).

Now, it may be true that Zzabur did the Closing, but that is unknowable.
And, like many other Gloranthan events, he may not have been the _only_
one who had a hand in it. At least four major acts of magic combined
caused the Sunstop, per Cults of Terror, and there probably were others.
Why shouldn't the Closing be the same?

>If the records were God Learner designs, then it is unlikely that
>the designs were made in an attempt to thwart the Closing. The
>local God Learners were the Zistorites who conquered Esrolia.
>Since they had been vanquished in 917 ST before the Closing began,
>it is unlikely that the plans were GL prototypes to thwart the Closing.

We don't know that the Zistorites were the _only_ God Learners in
Kethaela. We have only one story about them, in King of Sartar --
Genertela implies a much stronger presence than this.

>To say that events sooner or later become unreliable myths
>regardless of their historical documentation seems to me to
>be fallacious in the extreme. The Peloponesian War was
>fought nearly two and a half thousand years ago yet we know
>more historically about that war than say the life of King
>Arthur due to having one of the finest and driest historian
>writing about that war.

And how well can we rely upon his history -- did he have no bias in this
event? Did he have no possibility of inaccurate sources? Did he put no
mythic stuff in, like Herodotus did in The Persian Wars? Did he not rely
upon other people for some of the info, thus leading to possible errors?

Just because we have written records, doesn't mean they are accurate. If
Hiutler had won WWII, do you think the German histories of the war would
be completely accurate in an objective sense?

And I am not obfuscating, I am merely pointing out that you cannot rely
upon a version of history written by Dara Happans, to be an accurate
reflection of history in an objective sense -- it has inherent Dara
Happan biases, it looks at things from a very different viewpoint, both
logically and mythically, than do the EWF histories, or the Fronelan
histories, or the XYZ histories. Anything which is published about

Glorantha from some person's point of view, by definition is probably not
100% accurate, except for that person. And if that person is writing for
a Dara Happan Emperor, I'm sure he will change things, leave stuff out,
add stuff, etc., to make Dara Happa look good, because the author's life,
and the lives of his entire family, probably depended on it.

>>Since Falling Hills was prompted by Lunar aggression (in both versions
>>the story we have, the Lunar one and the Tarsh one), only the most
>>pro-Lunar propagandist could say that it was an invasion of Peloria.

>'Lunar agression'? The battle is fought in Holay which has been in
>the Lunar orbit since Hwarin Dalthippa's time as the Daughter's Road
>ends there. Arim, you'll remember, had to cross the Line of Death to
>flee the Lunars.

You'll note that Arim is fleeing the Lunars. And, I'll quote from History
of the Lunar Empire, Third Wane, either in WF 13 or Heroes somethign or

"In 3/7 (1362 S.T.) the Lunar army approached, seeking a grove of trees
and armed with fire magics. The Earth Twins first displayed..."

>Furthermore the lunar version of the battle mentions no agression save
that the >army was looking for a grove of trees.

Now, in Glorantha, if I approach a grove of trees armed with fire magics,
anyone in their right mind is going to assume aggression on my part. I
assumed aggression on the part of the Lunars from this, though I could be

Also, given the nature of Tarsh at the time, which was _not_ aggressive,
and given the nature of the Lunars, who _were_ aggressive, I think it is
a big stretch to suggest that the Lunars were defending themselves
against Tarsh aggression, as you seem to be implying. Arim could have

been going for revenge or something, but that seems unlikely to me -- he
seems happy enough in his new kingdom.


>OTOH, you
>didn't actually suggest a troll/elf in the same sense as a "half-elf",
>maybe you have something else in mind?

Actually, I thought it was pretty clear that I meant a hero whose
mother/father was an elf, and whose father/mother was a troll. Probably
the before-slashes, not the after. But, this was added facetiously, as I
expected people to flame it. In other words, it was a joke, and I hope no
one takes it seriously.

Stephen Martin
- -----------------------------------------------
The Book of Drastic Resolutions


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