From: Paul Chapman (email@example.com)
Date: Mon 02 Jun 1997 - 02:59:04 EEST
Hi everyone, I'll launch straight into comments today:-
V.S. Greene and smart arrows:-
> In the Great Debate over the possibilities of Elves in the Troll Woods,
>James Frusetta flippantly wondered if the elves had "smart arrows".
> What a neat idea, actually. Picture a special, incredibly rare weapons
>plant whose fruit is a self-guiding arrow. Maybe they'd only be useful
>against a specific type of enemy. Figure that it would always hit its target,
>maybe even if it is out of sight.
> Just a thought.
_You bet_ something like this exists and the elves have it! The Myth of
The Arrow was created by Flamal during the Greater Darkness as a tool to
the Arrow (short Godlearner form):-
fight Chaos... and Trolls... Flamal slumbered in hell after being slain by
Zorak Zoran he sent help to his heroes in the form of Arrow, a special
plant that held the power of Death (which Flamal by now well knew). Arrow
had many offspring, each of which grew to fight the enemy of the moment
with the aid of the prayers of the loyal (and desperate) Aldryami. There
were many (dozens of) varieties of Arrow for this reason, each holding his
or her secret of Death. Originally the weapon was used as a Javelin or
stabbing weapon until some Hero or other found the mystical Elf Bow seed
(also sent by Flamal) and created the bow to enhance the power of Arrows.
Many of the Arrow plants were destroyed or scattered into small remnants
over mythical time, but the scattered groups of elves may hold the secrets
of the Arrow. The best known example is the Poisonthorn arrow, a secret
held by the Poisonthorn elves of Dorastor (Aldrya revealed it to them at
some point in history, but originally it came from Flamal).
The Arrow was created by Flamal during the Greater Darkness as a tool to
Hmm, that wasn't bad. I must develop that, although I'm sure it conflicts
with something already developed.
Some notes on the arrows:-
The (special) elven arrows are exceedingly rare. They would be more common
apart from the fact that Flamal was dead when Arrow and her offspring were
born and fertility very low at that time... when Time was born the pattern
was set for Arrow plants and they typically only produce a new arrow once
every dozen or so seasons... the arrow is the fruit, and if you want to
plant it to create a new Arrow plant, you can't fire it, so production is
really slow. :-(
The rituals needed to birth a new Arrow plant are very rare too.
It's possible that a more common arrow spell exist that produces simple Elf
Arrows, these are alive as described below but have no amazing powers. The
ritual to produce them would be common enough so that most Gardeners would
know it, but the arrows are still very rare 'cos of their slow growth rate.
The arrows are fruit, and thus begin to die when taken from their bush.
There is a preservation ritual, which has not spread to all elf
communities, that keeps the arrows alive for a certain time (measured in
seasons). In RQ terms, a living arrow has POW of 1d6 and is "smart",
adding a natural (non-magical) Speedart effect (which stacks with the
Battle Magic spell) to the arrow when fired.
There are many forms of these arrows, limited only by imagination and myth.
A lot of the arrows were grown against chaos, trolls and dwarves, and
their powers tend to reflect this although some (such as the fabled Singing
Arrows, Poisonthorn Arrows, etc) are more generalised in purpose.
Nobody short of a big Elf Hero will ever see more than one or two types of
I could write more, but that will do for the purposes of this posting.
Comments, anyone? Should I develop this further?
BTW, for citation purposes I took 95% of the above out of my head. The
rest came from the Cults Book or Elder Secrets or Dorastor, LoD.
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:58:16 -0700
>Subject: naughty Kitori
>>From: James Frusetta <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>Subject: Don't kill dem Elves!
>>After going to great lengths to promote killing any elf who comes near a
>>troll strongland, it struck me that there _is_ at least one viable case
>>where trolls tolerate elves, and vice versa: the Vale of Flowers. The Bee
>>Tribe allows the Elves to tend the flowers; the Elves allow the trolls "to
>>occasionally visit the giant flowers without molestation."
>>Such toleration is only because of mutual _need_ however. So applying it
>>to the Troll Woods (despite my apparent preference for pogrom) begs the
>>question of what the trolls do for the elves -- the Bee tribe offers both
>>protection and pollen, natch. Do the Kitori have a Bee tribe of their own?
>according to Gorakiki subcults as offered on an excellent webpage I
>unfortunately can't credit just now, (insert malign computer rune reference
>here) they do, as in my game.
>I still think you're missing the point, that Ernalda is the mother/wife
>cult of the Kitori <humans & Uz of the Troll Wood> and the fems arn't going
>to be interested in some pogrom obsessed warriors telling them what to do,
>or who to hang out with, and Aldrya is an associated cult of Ernalda. The
>elf strongholds you'de like to burn down...you're suggesting that Trolls
>make military strike on an associate temple of their own Mother Cult.
>You'll be attacking Elf Aldrya cultists,and Troll & Human, Ernalda, Aranea,
>& Babeestor Gor cultists of your OWN tribe. When there is a nasty Chaos
>wood within handy smashing range as well...What sensible Troll would choose
>to accompany you on this mission against the local seat of femmy fertility?
>What could a troll possibly hope to gain? Assuming that he'd survive (and I
>don't) he'd stand not a snowball's chance in hell of ever gaining feminine
>approval/getting laid by fems again within the Kitori. If I were a Kitori
>and some cousin of mine suggested attacking our mother's forest shrine,
>I'de kill him myself so that the people wouldn't think my bloodline was
>tainted with chaos.
>>Steve Martin Sez:
>>>>Actually, my impression from Trollpak and related areas was that most of
>>> >Dagori Inkarth _is_ a blasted wasteland, by human terms.
>>> Right. Only scrub, thorns, and scraggly brush. Hordes of
>>> starving trollkin, monstrous troll hunters, etc.
>>Well, the Spoorwood and Vale of Flowers have both survived. As has enough
>>vegitation to raise beetles, to provide enough for hunting, etc. So I
>>stand by the "not eaten down to the bedrock" statement.
>Then you have answered your own question about mutual need. Elves & trolls
>both need the woods to live. The woods are more verdant because of elf
>contribution to ecology. It's in everyone's best interest to just avoid
>each other, which is easy enough to do, especially if you do what "mom"
>says, you'll stay out of each other's way, and out of trouble. Or you could
>attack the largest Babeestor Gor <read fem version of ZZ> stronghold/temple
>in the troll woods, and with some luck you'll be able to convince a few
>more broken loonys to accompany you, so that the Babs don't have to bicker
>& squable over which of them get to chop you to tiny bits...
>From: James Frusetta <email@example.com>
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:00:37 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Letting Elves Live
>Carolyn McKinney writes:
>> woods with them. The Kitori might brag, that they live in a "haunted
>> forest". The DakInk think we're crazy! We live with humans, we live right
>> up on a Chaos wood, we let elves live in our forest, we don't even all of
>> us live underground, We're Wood Trolls, not UZUZ.
>Suggesting where troll ethnic jokes come from. "How many Kitori trolls
>does it take to change a light bulb?" "One, but she needs a human to help
>her." :) "What do you call a shiftless, untrustworthy, cheating Kitori
>trader?" "Normal." :)
>> Good point, maybe they're degenerates. How devo would they have to be in
>> your opinion to live quietly above the Kitori minding the treetops? Or do
>> you think it's just not at all possible?
>I don't know; I was throwing it out for the Digest Elf Faction (DEF) to
>contribute to. IMO, I think that elves that live outside an elf forest for
>that length of time are somehow "unelfy" to other elves. Not quite right,
>might be different somehow. But (since info on Elves is very limited) I'm
>not sure if this is true or not.
>One possibility might be that just as some fungus broke away from
>Mee Vorala, some plants may have broken away from Aldrya. I don't know
>what the trees of the TW are like, but if they _need_ Darkness (perhaps
>adapted to it over the Lesser and Great Darknesses), the Elves would be
>more likely to reach a compact with the trolls. Their worship of Aldrya
>may be different (just as the Rist/Hellwood elves worsh Big Ol' Chaotic
>Aldrya). Daldrya of the Troll Woods, Goddess of the (Troll Wood) Trees may
>simply not be a troll enemy. And since I play that elves' personalities,
>etc., are based on the kind of plant life they "came" from (e.g., I played
>a very bitter lemon elf, once), elves from the Darkness Trees of the Troll
>Woods may act very differently.
>> >(And just a question: why in the world would the elves _stay_ in the Troll
>> >Woods with all these nasty, horrid uz who want to eat you?
>> RW humans live lots of places where nasty horrid things eat them. I don't
>> know about the Rist elves, but life *will* live wherever it *can* live.
>Yah, but usually elves stick around to their (incorrectly spelled)
>Shannassy trees. If they don't have their big ol' tree/uplink to Aldrya,
>I'm wondering why they wouldn't just up and leave. Perhaps they feel (like
>Greenslave) that if they didn't stay, the trees would suffer, the trolls
>wouldn't know how to take care of them, etc...?
>If it's some strange Darkness Tree, of course, then they may have a (i.s.)
>Dshannassy tree/ link to Daldrya the trolls never cut down, because it's a
>_good_ tree, and they're really Delfs, not elfs.
>> I really don't know how many elves are in the Troll woods; not
>> enough to be a real threat to the 6000 humans/Uz of the Kitori tribe, but
>> way too many to exterminate. 2000? YGMV.
>2000 seems way too high if they're elfs, even if the Kitori tolerate them.
>I'd think more like 200-500. If they're delfs, it might be different.
>> Cool! IMG Kitori use dirt burrowing beetles to dig out their dens, the
>> tasty paste idea should have numerous beetle related applications. Any more
>> bug thoughts?
>Hmm. Applicable for the Troll Woods? The Bee Tribe of DakInk (as noted in
>an earlier post) tolerates VoF elves because the bees need flowers, the
>flowers need bees. How about termites?
>If there's a special breed of termites that can _only_ eat the trees of
>the Troll Woods (assuming they're a different type of tree), and the trees
>_need_ the termites (to enrich the soil, or whatever termites do in
>positive terms), _and_ the Kitori have a Gorakiki-Special Termite temple,
>that's a good motivator for cooperation. The Elves allow the trolls
>to tend to the termites, the trolls restrain the termites from eating
>every tree. The resulting giant termite mounds can be modified to live
>in. Since the Kitori are traders, perhaps the termites are tasty and
>other trolls buy them for eatin'. Some of their products (drool,
>excrement, chewed-up wood paste) may be magical (e.g., Royal Jelly and
>Grubfarm Super-Tasty Honey). What magical effect would Giant Termite
>Slobber (tm) have, though?
>I've used rock-eating bugs of various types -- don't know if trolls would
>also use them in the Stone Woods, where rock fights back. Not much else
>good for a tree-based economy, though. Although another source of Kitori
>wealth might be stone insects -- capture the various stone bugs of the
>Stone Woods and ship 'em off to Gorakiki temples (what Gorakiki Beetle
>temple wouldn't like a stone beetle?). A neat critter until it dies, and
>then you've got a very, very realistic statue of the beetle in question --
>a nifty place to stick a spirit, too.
>> Im unclear as to the feasibility of corrupting dryads, or the meaning of
>> corrupt in this context, make them sabotuers?
>Um, more like convince them their interests lie more with me than the
>elves. Or demand that neutrality thing -- the dyrads don't help the elves
>_or_ the trolls. And they might be didyrads, natch.
>> For my Kitori it's not worth exterminating a resource. As far as the
>> Matriarchs, who are making up the schedule for most Trolls (except ZZ's)
>> there are better things to do than exterminate a resource. Even if it
>> presents a minor threat.
>Are ZZites banned from Kitori lands? If a minority of trolls was
>running around espousing my Elf Pogrom while most were espousing
>co-existence, the first group wouldn't fit in real well. Especially since
>ZZites are into challenging Karrg's Sons, attacking your neighbors and
>giving Orlanthi boots to the head (not likely to go over well with the
>local humans -- isn't Orlanth supposed to have married KL, or something?)
>Sounds like a good reason to throw them out, or limit their numbers
>> Trolls, and are not all the trolls on Glorantha. RW I've heard people from
>> the south of the US bragging about how they have aligators crawling around
>> that could (maybe) eat you.
>Yah, I'm from Alaska and we do the same things with the bears. Nothing
>like a good mauling story to put the Fear of Bear into tourists. :)
>But note that the bears aren't _really_ a threat. Don't know about
>alligators, but bears usually avoid people; they've been hunted
>extensively, so their numbers are low; and if I know a bear is nearby, I
>can bring overpowering force to bear (trolls are hard to kill, but a
>superheavy handgun, say a .454, or a heavy rifle will do the job.) The
>bear, having no opposable thumb, is at a disadvantage until it gets within
>about 8 feet or so (at which point it rips my limbs off).
>If the bears or alligators had an even chance against weapon-toting
>humans, I doubt there'd be as many people there.
>> I don't know what MGF is.
>Oh. Maximum Game Fun. I doubt that the Troll Air Force (my own little pet
>love, based on the _enormous_ number of bee riders available in Dakori
>Inkarth. What do they do? Scouting, sure, but also air superiority and
>ground attack!) would ever receive official approval. So what? It's fun!
>Speaking of which, if there's conflict with the Shadow Plateau, giant bees
>would be a good thing. Since the SP trolls have access to several marshes,
>they'd have a nice crop of dragonflies. But since Kitori Humans have
>access to flying spells, the humans may simply provide the air cover.
>> But maybe they gossip about it in Dakori Inkarth, those crazy Kitori!
>Good grief, yes. Not only do the Kitori sleep with Humans (oh, sure they
>_say_ they don't, but we all know they do), worship weird gods and
>generally act untrustworthy, but they make friends with elves! Argh! No
>right-thinking matriarch is gonna let her favorite son marry one of those
>From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Stephen Martin)
>Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:10:05 EDT
>Subject: Giant Flowers
>email@example.com (Maria & Michael)
> Uz bee riders where?
>Me (slightly out of context):
>>>Still, troll bee riders are a likely complement
>>>to them as well, though I'd wonder where they keep the giant flowers.
>>Vale of Flowers? It's next to Sporewood where the 'shrooms suffer from
>>giantism, so it wouldn't be inconceivable.
>I know where the Vale of Flowers is. What I was asking, is where would
>the trolls _of the Troll Woods_ get Giant Flowers for _their_ bees.
>Although it is not impossible for the bees to go all the way from
>Heortland to the Vale of Flowers, I think it unlikely in the current age,
>given all the people in the Pass. Though it would have worked _extremely_
>well during the Inhuman Occupation. Still, I think there are currently no
>Bee Riding trolls in the Troll Woods -- doesn't seem to fit their magical
>ecology, what little I know of it.
>The Book of Drastic Resolutions
>From: "Jane Williams" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:13:33 +0000
>Subject: Ducks : where, and what cults?
>On the subject of Ducks.... I'd been trying to figure out their society
>myself, in a vague sort of way.
>What other locations for Ducks are known, apart from Duck Point? River
>of Cradles implies that the ducks in Prax only arrived there when they
>fled Sartar in 1613. (Though there are now 1,500 of them in the valley,
>according to the Pavis Pak; I can't find the corresponding table in
>RoC). There's a suggestion that some of them fled "to their kin in the
>Holy Country" - any idea what bit of the Holy Country?
>It's always seemed to me that the ducks of Duck Point have been changed
>from "normal" duck society by having Delecti as a neighbour (giving the
>Humakti tendency), and by the treaty with Sartar (putting them on better
>terms with humans than normal), but I'm having problems finding any
>"normal" ducks with whom to compare them.
>Cults: I gather that ducks used to worship Yelm (or some other sun-god:
>I'm not getting into that argument!) and this changed when they were
>"cursed", so they lost their wings, gained live births and longer
>lifespans, and started worshipping Orlanth instead. Fine so far, that's
>the male deity sorted. But what about the female? All I ever hear is that
>they worship Ernalda. Why? They're not farmers, they're fishers.
>Worshipping the river spirit would seem to make more sense. Ancestor
>worship too, fine, most people do that to some extent. But when they want
>more food, shouldn't they be praying to the river to send them more fish?
>Jane Williams email@example.com
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