many topics

From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Sun 08 Jun 1997 - 04:55:47 EEST


Joerg Baumgartner:
==================

>I just want to state a couple of points Peter disagrees with:

>The Pendali were not Hsunchen at the time Hrestol lived.

At least some of them were which I've implied right back from
the very beginning.

>They worshipped fully-fledged gods rather than measly beast spirits.

Just because they are Hsunchen does not mean they are limited
to Lion spirits. In addition to Rathor, the Rathori worship
Agikoros the Fire God, Silent Stalker the Hunter, Enimipol the
Beast Mother, Dog Brother, Thanz the acorn spirit, Burrowing
Toad Mother and Bluben. I and many Rathori would be very
suprised to hear them dismissed as 'measly beast spirits'.

Joerg is also apparently ignorant that Shamanistic Cultures can
achieve a high degree of urban sophistication to wit the Maya
(cf "Forest of Kings" by Linda Schele). In addition, shamans in
glorantha can achieve a great range of magical effects that can
really be equalled by civilized cultures. Look at Nomad Gods
or what Sheng Seleris did at the Battle of Gardint. Put the
early Malkioni on the recieving end. Do you still think that
the Basmoli *must* have had sorcerers and worship fully-fledged
gods?

>Some of them lived in cities, others had agriculture, and some had lion
>companions.

If Joerg believes that I disagree with any of this then he hasn't
been following the debate very well. What I disagreed on was
whether the Pendali had sorcerers and/or iron armour.

>Even if a source is old, detail information which has never been
>contradicted by any later publication is still valid.

But it has been contradicted in *parts*. Thus slavishly insisting
that we follow the rest in *all* particulars is an exercise for the
braindead in futility.

Hasni Mubarak:
==============

>For one, I have allways believed that when a Gloranthan looks at the sky
>and sees the Sun, she believes that it is PHYSICALLY Yelm.

Only if he or she is a Pelorian or those influenced by the Pelorians.
Everyone in Glorantha believes that the Sun is a source of wonder in
the Heavens and that it is inherently numinous. They disagree on the
*minor* details (like what the Sun's name is, how he or she should be
worshipped etc). The Westerners do not believe the Sun is Yelm
according to Wyrms Footprints:

        "Ehilm is the name used in the Western Lands of
        Genertela and it became widespread during the
        Second Age, sometimes completely replacing the
        local name".

Likewise, the Pentans believe the Sun to be Kargzant. It's not a
question of 'is this god the same as that one?' for the Sun (and
other) cults in different places are different. It's a question
about 'they say the Sun is X whereas we know that the Sun is Y, how
can this be so?' and how the cultures resolve this question. Most
people resolve it by saying 'The people who say that the Sun is X
are complete and utter morons. Let them be/wipe them out/educate
them {strike out inapplicable responses}'.

>However, I think that some of the "Pantheons" are necc. incomplete.
>For instance, the entire Earth Pantheon doesn't ever exist independent.
>It (AFIK) is allways tied in with another cult.

That is because the Earth Pantheon (described in RQ3 Book V) is a
fiction invented to a certain extent by the God Learners. Mostal
has never been part of an Earth Pantheon as long as any True Mostali
can remember. Pamalt has always been confined to the South and has
never found in Genertela.

But the Esrolian Pantheon is probably the closest to an Earth
Pantheon and it does exist independantly in Esrolia where it
rules the Husbands and not the other way around (as in other
lands). The Elf Pantheon is more dissimilar than the God Learner
conception as it is moulded by the inhuman perceptions of the
elves. Finally Pamalt leads an Earth Pantheon in his own right
and he cares naught for what the God Learners think it should
be like.

David Dunham:
=============

Me>> I don't think that Godunya *knew* he was the
>> Emperor in hiding until he passed the tests. During his
>> pre-imperial lifetime, he would have been an ordinary
>> belt-buckle salesman

>Assuming 100+ year old salesman are normal...

'almost a century' is stated in the Genertela Book. If he
was born during the Dragons Awakening Shudder (which is stated
to be the time when Godunya broke free from the New Dragons Ring)
then he would have been at the most seventy three years of age
when he was enthroned.

- --Peter Metcalfe

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